Plans to close the existing Abingdon Wal-Mart store and build a new, possibly 24-hour Wal-Mart Supercenter on Route 924 in Bel Air brought a crowd of vociferous opposition out en masse Thursday night, with community residents calling for a boycott of the company.
A standing-room-only crowd, estimated at more than 800 people, packed the auditorium of Patterson Mill Middle/High School Thursday during a community meeting intended to allow developers to present information and gather community input on their proposal to construct a new Wal-Mart store on 17 acres contained on a 33-acre undeveloped parcel near the intersection of Plumtree Road and Route 924 in Bel Air.
“None of us want you,” an attendee shouted at one point during the two-and-a-half hour long meeting. “Go away!”
Those words garnered a standing ovation and represented, at the most basic level, the sentiment of the packed auditorium–a sentiment which started early. During the initial welcome announcements, the crowd booed loudly at the mention of Wal-Mart representatives being in attendance.
Proposed for the Bel Air site is a Wal-Mart Supercenter, replete with an automotive center, pharmacy with drive-thru, groceries (with a separate market entrance), garden center, and screening in back for building services. The new store would be accessed by a main entrance off of Route 924 and could be open 24 hours a day. Traffic could be in range of 10,000 trips per day.
The impetus for Wal-Mart’s proposed move to Bel Air are the physical constraints of the Abingdon site, but also an obscure provision tucked into the deed of a nearby land deal, which restricts grocery store usage at the site.
Under the proposed plan, the existing Abingdon store would close once the purchase of the Plumtree Road site is finalized and new construction begins. The team at Wal-Mart will then begin to look at redevelopment opportunities–and possibly multiple retail users–for the Abingdon site. All current employees of the Abingdon store will be moved to the Bel Air location and an additional 75 to 100 employees are expected to be hired.
Community opposition aside, Wal-Mart still faces a number of hurdles before it can be proceed with its plans.
For starters, a required traffic study not yet complete. Harford County required that 20 different intersections, clustered mainly along Rt. 24 and Rt. 924, and stretching from Singer Road up to Route 1 and Route 24, be studied.
Site access was another issue. The State Highway Administration would not allow access from Route 24. A traffic light is planned on Route 924 at Bright Oaks, which will be the only entrance on Route 924 and will be the main entrance to the store. Other entrances are planned on Blue Spruce at both Bel Air South Parkway and Plumtree Road. Trucks making deliveries are expected to come north on Rt. 24, turn right on Plumtree, then right on Blue Spruce to the back of the store. If you need additional trucks for delivery, check out these options of work trucks for sale in San Diego; they offer an affordable rate.
Wal-Mart hopes to have a preliminary plan, with a completed traffic study, finalized and submitted to the Harford County Development Advisory Committee prior to Labor Day. While declining to estimate when the new store might open, representatives said that following the necessary approvals, the closing of the property purchase and putting the work out to bid, the construction window would be 9 – 12 months.
The concerns expressed by the community consisted of the increased traffic, impact on local businesses, a “race to the bottom for wages,” crime, and a desire to keep the store in Abingdon and expand at that site. Also, noise, lighting from the store affecting nearby homes, and having a store so close to residential areas were mentioned as areas of concern.
Nina Albert, director of community affairs for Wal-Mart, countered that national studies have shown a positive economic impact from Wal-Mart stores and she said that there was local support for the Bel Air expansion.
In response, Wal-Mart representatives also said that noise would be considered, lights would be directed downward and cut off at the property line, so as not to extend out into the community, and security would be looked at during planning.
While some opponents handed out materials to attendees another called for an all-out boycott of the exsting Abingdon store. Several attendees held signs reading “No 9/24 Walmart,” a petition was circulated opposing the store and some called for fundraising to conduct an independent traffic study.
Present at the meeting were representatives from Wal-Mart, a traffic engineer, an architect, and Thomas Kleine, an attorney with Troutman Sanders LLP of Virginia Beach. Also in attendance were Harford County Council members Dion Guthrie, Joe Woods, Jim McMahan, and Mary Ann Lisanti. A representative for council president Billy Boniface was also present.
One speaker thanked McMahan for his effort to institute community input meetings, which allow the public to see and and offer comment on plans before they are formally presented to county. While the council has no role in approving the proposed Wal-Mart, beyond having approved the zoning on the property, Lisanti said that council members can advocate for the public’s position, which she intended to do.
At one point in the meeting, a community member asked those in the audience who opposed the Bel Air Wal-Mart plan to stand and face the county council. Very few remained seated.
“These are your voters,” she said.
Next Steps
From the Community Input Meeting (CIM) to approval of a proposed development is a multi-step process that can be accomplished within six months, but may take longer, according to Pete Gutwald, Director of Planning & Zoning. Below is an overview of the next steps in the process:
DAC Meetings – Open to the Public
Following the Community Input Meeting (CIM), the developer has 45 days to submit a summary of comments from the meeting to the Department of Planning and Zoning and up to one year to submit preliminary/site plans to the Development Advisory Committee.
What’s a DAC?
The Development Advisory Committee (DAC) is advisory to the Director of Planning and Zoning and is comprised of representatives from county agencies, including but not limited to:
[1] Department of Planning and Zoning.
[2] Department of Public Works.
[3] Health Department.
[4] Department of Parks and Recreation.
[5] Soil Conservation District.
[6] Sheriff’s Department.
[7] Harford County Public Schools.
[8] Emergency Operations.
DAC makes a technical analysis of what regulations apply to a proposed development, and what the developer must do to comply with those regulations. The Plumtree property is zoned B3 General Business District, which does allow for a business such as Wal-Mart, as well as other uses, including residential apartments and townhouses, hotels, and warehousing.
Plans submitted to DAC may be the same as those presented at the CIM, or revised to reflect community input or other changes made by the developer. As plans evolve, there may be more than one DAC meeting for a proposed development.
Notice of a DAC meeting must be made public two weeks in advance, and include signage posted on the affected property. DAC meetings are held on designated Wednesdays at 9:00 a.m. in the 2nd Floor Conference Room of the county administration building located at 220 South Main Street in Bel Air. DAC meetings are open to the public and public comment is allowed, as provided for as follows:
“Any citizen attending the Development Advisory Committee meeting may make any comment regarding a development plan and each comment shall be addressed by a County agency. If a representative of a County agency is unable to address the comment at the meeting, the citizen’s name and address shall be obtained, and a representative of the appropriate County agency shall address the citizen’s comment by written response to the Director of Planning within 2 weeks of the meeting. The Director of Planning shall be responsible for ensuring that all responses are forwarded to the appropriate citizens. The Director of Planning shall be responsible for ensuring that the responses are forwarded to the appropriate citizens within 30 calendar days after the meeting. (source: Subdivision Regulations for Harford County, Maryland )”
Traffic Study
When a developer submits a preliminary/site plan to DAC, the developer must also submit a traffic study; the submission must be made to the county 30 days before the DAC meeting. Traffic studies are available for public viewing.
When determining traffic levels generated by proposed development, current traffic is counted at affected intersections along with traffic expected from approved projects that are in development (i.e. the firehouse at Patterson Mill Rd) plus additional traffic expected from the proposed development.
The time of day that current traffic counts were taken by the developer will be noted in the study. Representatives at the Wal-Mart Community Input Meeting Thursday said that the county required weekday and Saturday traffic counts to be taken. Projected trip generation from a proposed development is based on its use and size, in accordance with the Institute of Transportation Engineers Trip Generation Manual.
Traffic Mitigation
At any of the intersections studied, if all of the above traffic will reduce service to unacceptable levels, based on established Level of Service standards, P&Z can require mitigation by the developer in accordance with established state and local standards. Mitigation could include signal modifications and/or additional turn lanes along a roadway such as Rt. 924.
Appeals:
DAC makes recommendations to P&Z, which makes the final decision to approve preliminary/site plans. Preliminary/site plan approval is good for two years and represents the go-ahead from the county for the developer to execute plans as approved.
Appeals of Planning and Zoning decisions may be made in Circuit Court by the developer or by interested persons whose property is affected, as outlined in the following section from Harford County’s Subdivision Regulations:
§ 268-28. Appeals.
A. Any interested person whose property is effected by any decision of the Director of Planning, may within 30 calendar days after the filing of such decision, appeal to the Circuit Court for Harford County. Upon the hearing of such appeal, the decision of the Director of Planning shall be presumed by the Court to be proper and to best serve the public interest. The burden of proof shall be upon the appellant, or appellants, to show that the decision complained of was illegal. The said Court shall have the power to affirm, modify or reverse in part or in whole any decision appealed from and may remand any case for the entering of a proper order or for further proceedings, as the Court shall determine.
B. An appeal may be taken to the Court of Special Appeals of Maryland from any decision of the Circuit Court for Harford County.
Concept Plan Map
I don’t understand your article does not say anything about when the county council will vote on this or why they are not stopping this mess. Can they stop this? And if not why were they at the meeting tonight?
You don’t have to worry about the council voting because they are going to vote for the project. Just think about it….they will do whatever needs to be done to help private business and forget the voter. Just look at what they did with giving the “loan” to a company that made 661 million dollar profit. Looks like business as usual and we are getting the worst part. The county council is in it for themselves. Just ask the one who sponsored the “loan” and the one who seconded it. Seems we have people on there who could care less about the Harford County Citizen.
I’m not sure why another one needs to be built or why no one has addressed the fact that ANOTHER super Walmart was just opened not even 3 miles away… Why exactly does Walmart need two locations within just a couple of miles? Why is Harford – Bel Air allowing that..?
I’m not sure if the article was edited after you made your comment, but it specifically stated that the Council has no control over this issue, and no input, beyond the fact that they re-zoned the property to allow this construction.
Beemerman – no edits were made to the published story, but thanks for reiterating the point about the county council’s role in the process.
the simple fact that the property was “re-zoned” indicates their (council) approval.
That’s exactly right. It’s easy to claim you have no control but the simple fact that this property was zoned residential and then was changed – a significant change away from the master plan and one anybody would have to know could result in a detrimental impact to the surrounding neighborhoods. You don’t think a “by the way we have Walmart on the line for this one” sort of comment was made by somebody in county government? Of course they knew. I think we ought to have multiple degrees of zoning for business and commercial development in the same way as we already have for residential/agricultural lands. Big box should be one code, small retail another…etc. We need a way to ensure the scale of business development is compatible with surrounding communities/homes. A Super Walmart is too big right there; it’ll wreck havoc on existing neighborhoods.
I cannot believe that Dion seconded the loan for Capt Jim. That is a slap in the face to DSS. Giving money to a company that doesn’t need it. You do do much good for the Foster/Adoption Awareness and now you give money, that is from the taxpayers of Harford County to a company that made a profit. I for one am at a loss to explain……why giving money to a company that doesn’t have to pay it back and there are programs for children that need funding. Just open the window and throw the money out. It amazes me how the council can do something like this and expect to not be noticed. Joe Woods has won my respect and he is truly for the people.
Anne did you see how the county council gave 100,000 to a london based company. Sadly they could care less about you, with the exception of Council member Joe Woods. Probably wont be able to stop this but dont give up on something you beleive in. Good Luck!
Yeah and Joe is a decent guy. I have always liked him. He stood up to them and said NO. I wonder what Capt Jim would do if the shoe was on the other foot. We have smoke and mirrors on the council and they try to act like they want to serve the members of the public, but it didn’t work this time. I am sure they thought we wouldn’t see the vote and the uneducated public would be blinded by another issue.
I did not see that but I heard about it tonight. I talked to him tonight. He and the one the others called Captain both seemed very honest and willing to listen. I feel like I can actually trust Mr Woods I wish he was my council member. I don’t know the others.
Woods is my council member and this is the second reason in a week that I thank my lucky stars. Honesty and integrity can sometimes be lacking in public officials, but Woods has always exhibited plenty of both and plenty of humility, again rare in public leadership.
Joe has been a stand up guy. This Capt Jim, or should we say, Dollar Bill Jim. Wonder he can be seen in public with giving a loan to a company that made a profit. It’s hard enough for county workers to make ends meat and he goes and gives our tax dollars away. None of that money came out of his pocket and he thought we were stupid enough to just let him make the loan. Joe should be proud of himself and Dollar Bill Jim should be ashamed. He has made a bad decision and now he looks like another politician who doesn’t care about the average person.
marks 10th cousin on his mothers side,
Good comment. Were you at the tea party demonstrations last spring?
Why do they call this council member Capt Jim? Is that a police or military rank? Isn’t he the council member who voted to give the loan to the company that made 661 million dollar profit last year? Also, this loan doesn’t have to be paid back? I’m a little bewildered that we are not giving raises to police and other county workers, but we have money to give to companies who made a profit last year? Seems kinda strange that it was given at all.
He owned a radio station and called himself Captain Jim on the air. I don’t think he’s ever held such a rank for real. He’s a blowhard who trades on his colorful image, and depends on name recognition to get elected.
Beereman, He was a captain in the Maryland Defense Guard. He went by the name Capt. Jim when he was on the radio.
Maryland Defense Force? They work one day a year and can wear a variation of the army uniform. Some of them are very honorable men and women. I am sure Jim can be honorable, but in this instance….he messed up. As for calling him Capt Jim…….why would I want to be called something I am not. I do not use a professional title to have people address me unless I am working. Seems kinda odd to call someone a Capt and he ain’t.
I told ‘Cap’n Jim’ my feelings on handing out a $750,000 loan and $100,000 grant to a big bio-chemical detection corporation last month, and he also seemed very honest and willing to listen, Anne. He replied back ‘read you loud and clear’. Then he voted for the hand-out. Joe Woods is the only one who did not.
If we don’t get this county and then this state straightened out, the only businesses you’ll have left are the Walmarts and the Casinos.
There’s no stopping what can’t be stopped. Walmart is a juggernought they will get what they want.
The Council has no role really at this point I think. Their hand was played when they voted to change the zoning. I think people. Have only two ways out of this which are leaning on Planning and Zoning and their boss Craig, and/or by demanding so many changes and improvements that Walmart changes their mind. Good luck with either.
What I don’t understand is: why all the push back NOW? Where were these people when the 924/24 corridor was being built up?
Or is this just a class thing against Walmart? Would we even be having this discussion if what they wanted to build was another Wegmans?
It seems like most people understand developement will happen, but they are upset about the size of this particular store which would be even bigger than Wegmans. Some people were upset about the prospect of a Wegmans at this site a few years ago, but there are certainly some people who are a bit snobbish about Walmart in particular. Which is too bad because there are plenty of other problems with this.
LeTigre,
I assure you we would be having this discussion no matter who wanted to put something there. We always have it no matter who wants to build whatever and wherever in Harford County. We had it for the whole mess at the site that includes the Abingdon Wal-Mart. We had it at Constant Friendship. We had it for the site that includes Wegman’s. We had it for the Fallston Walmart. We had it for the southwest corner of Route 1 and Route 152. We had it when they wanted to expand the Detention Center. Most people want ‘it’ but the vocal people want ‘it’ somewhere else. It’s America and it is their right to be heard.
The really interesting thing about the meeting is who for the most part did NOT attend and that would be our less economically advantaged fellow citizens who depend on Walmart for a lot of their shopping because of the prices. In that regard it kinda is a class thing.
Unless you have access to information I do not I can only assume you have judged who was economically advantaged and who was not based on sight alone, which is disturbing.
Yes, Alex, it is always the same thing: I am for redistributing the school population, but not my child’s school; I know the trash has to go somewhere, but not in my neighborhood; I like to have low prices and shop, but don’t put anything in my neighborhood. S. O. S.
It’s tough to push back against that which you are unaware is coming. When back door deals are made and “re-zoning” approved w/o public input, and don’t give me the crap about postings and notices publicly published and displayed, it’s almost impossible to stop. Growth is inevitable but controlled, positive growth with minimal impact to quality of life should be the goal of every elected AND appointed official. Emmorton/Abingdon has now become a suburb of Bel Air and since Roni’s passing look what’s happening in Fallston, she’s not there anymore to push it North and East.
I think if they are going to build it that there should be a road off of 24 to connect to the Walmart. Only having a connecting road off of 924 and another off Plumtree is going to cause a lot more problems withe congestion. Then adding another light at Bright Oaks will only cause more delays. There are already 3 lights that are near that location 924 keeps on getting more and more congested through that part of Bel Air and it seems like it will only be getting worse not better with the new Walmart.
An entrance and exit at 24 would solve a lot of traffic problems, but the state limits the number of them on route 24 and I think Harford county is already over the limit so that cannot happen. Just another reason they should use the existing site in Abingdon.
And I agree that putting the main entrance on 924 with another light so close to the lights at Bel Air South and Plumtree is the worst idea of the whole thing. Almost insane really.
You don’t want Wal Mart in your back yard – I didn’t want Wegman’s, J C Penney’s and all the other stuff in my back yard but I got it so all the Bel Air people could drive down 24 and 924 to come shop and not have it in their back yards. Everyone always wants it in everyone else’s back yard but not their own. Well deal with it or quit shopping anywhere! The Abingdon Wal Mart needs to be replaced – it’s dated and too small for the amount of folks shopping there!
I understand your point as we are neighbors. Walmart officials at the meeting when asked why they could not upgtade the existing site could not give a specific reason other than its just not suitable. They need to do better than that because the current site is MUCH more suitable in terms of infrastructure.
They could if they pushed hard enough but they don’t want that location – demographics are they can’t vampire Wegmans customers, so they’re after Shoprite and most importantly that Target down the road because that Target put in groceries last year. I think Constant Freindship and the Wegmans shopping center were less despised because you nearly expect that development right off 95, but this is too close to town for my tastes and we already have multiple grocery stores within a mile of that same location.
I think the point may be that less economically advantaged citizens have harder opportunities to go to town meetings. They are more likely to work odd hours, share a single vehicle for the whole family, less able to pay someone to watch the kids, etc.
The county council has already made up their minds. They are going to let the walmart be built. Just like they have given a loan to a company that doesn’t need it. Where are all the council members who are for the people. Don’t look far because the Walmart is not in their back yard and they can get a job with walmart when they retire from the council. Looks like more loans need to be passed out?
I looked up “development” on Dictionary.com before commenting. Growth and progress; an antonym was deterioration. The word community was prevalent.
I think we need to find different words to describe what’s happening here.
Throughout this county we have quite a few drab and mostly failing strip type shopping centers. Some of them have excellent accessibility. The question I have is why we keep paving over open land when many of these antiquated and unsightly strip shopping centers would serve just as well.
I cringe at the urbanization of what was once a beautiful rural setting, but I would welcome and applaud the revitalization of the errors of past “development.”
That might help to alleviate the “Keep Us Rural” community’s concerns while giving the developers what they want.
We have to come up with something better than what we’ve been doing. Unless you like sitting in traffic and walking through parking lots, there has been far too little improvement and far too much deterioration.
We could always put a moratorium on these things until the most equitable choices can be determined, except that wouldn’t satisfy another prevalence- greed.
Three cheers for you and that’s exactly the point. We have spaces available already for businesses to open where it’s a practical and correct location. You’ll never get open land back once it’s been paved over so smart growth, planned growth is absolutely necessary. If you want a decent community with a greener and more wide open feel you need to be prepared for perhaps a bit less convenience. Neighborhoods are where people live – no more strip malls and parking lots in areas that are largely neighborhoods; it’s ruining the county.
I have said this same thing many a time…why not offer an incentive to go to an unused/now abandoned site and rebuild or modify a store area to save what undeveloped areas we have left. Another thing that boggles my mind is why we need to have 30ft tall signs for everything. I have traveled in many other MD and other state counties and their signage is much smaller(mostly ground level) and not so much of an eyesore. Wish we could put that in effect for some of the stores on 924 to make if feel like more of a small community as it still should be…
How many unused sites can you name that are over 15 acres, 15,000+ square feet, and can handle 10,000 cars per day?
There’s one right at the corner of 24 and Tollgate South – there’s a Walmart sitting on it. Imagine that.
You didn’t answer Kharn’s question. You avoided it.
I believe there are some open sites on rt 22 north of 543 and they already have traffic lights in place
what do think the people on Rt. 22 think about your idea? Have you ever seen the traffic on Rt. 22? You illustrate just what I said earlier.
why aren’t they planning the traffic study when school is in session and there is even more congestion. that would be a more realistic study
The traffic study was done during the school year. There were traffic counting cameras set-up in early May (within the school year). Once finalized, the study will be made available to the public. Review it when it is published and send your concerns about the survey timeframe, and anything else, to your councilman.
First of all the site is not in Bel Air, however it carries the 21015 Bel Air zip code. The site is in Emmorton. The County Council can do nothing to stop this. The site is already zoned for this use and if they meet all of their requirements for the development of this site than it will be approved and built. I don’t understand the uproar! The Route 24/Route 924 corridor is and always has been lined with commercial development and will continue to be a corridor for commercial and residential development. Rural it is not! If you don’t like it than move out of the Development envelope where all the development is concentrated or don’t shop there! Quite frankly, I enjoy the new Walmart in Fallston and I would shop at the one the moment it is built!
One of the main objections is that the main entrance will be on 924 at Bright Oaks, so the Bright Oaks folks will now have to share their residential community entrance with the Wal-mart. From the animation shown last night, it looks like 924 will be turned into 24 with no median but a lot more traffic lights. The reps did admit that 10,000 additional cars was not an unreasonable estimate.
Jeff, I agree 100%. thanks for adding some facts to this. The reality is exactly what you said- it is zoned for commercial development.
Rt 924 is looking more and more like Coastal Highway in Ocean City. The problem is that the infrastructure isn’t in place to handle this traffic. But the developers are dropping money in politicians pockets and stupid people keep re electing these dirty heavy pocket politicians.
The auditorium was packed: standing room only. The parking lots were full and people parked on the street. The suits from Wal Mart gave slick Power Point and video presentations as they attempted to explain the benefits of a Super Store in our residential neighborhood.
However, the audience was not having it. They were united in their vocal disapproval of Wal Mart at 924. The presenters were bombarded by hostile questions and it was just fortunate that we don’t tar and feather people any longer.
The Wal Mart presenters have heard all of this before. They expect it. They were there only to fulfill legal requirements of making a presentation for community input. They are not obliged to take any of our concerns into consideration. Indeed, while traffic was one of the greatest areas of concern, Wal Mart admitted that they could not even answer most of the questions as the study was not complete. Which only made me think that this whole dog and pony show was route and meaningless to them.
But it should not be meaningless to the County Council. It is their constituents who are affected and it is they that can exact payment from politicians come election time. Every one of them, and especially ole Capt. Jim (James “Capt’n Jim” McMahan) in whose district this Super Store lies, should be quaking in their boots. The community is really wasting their time in directing their ire towards Wal Mart. The presenters don’t live here. Their children or neighborhoods are not touched by this store. However, our County Council is, or should, be concerned. It is to them we should complain.
The Harford County Council’s next Legislative Session is scheduled for Tuesday, September 4, 2012 at 7:30 PM. “Harford County residents are encouraged to take part in the decision-making process. The general public is invited to attend Public Hearings and Council Meetings. In addition to contacting Council Members directly by phone, e-mail, fax, or mail, residents have several opportunities for public participation.
Testify at a Public Hearing
Those wishing to testify on a specific subject or bill are provided the opportunity at a scheduled public hearing. Speakers are required to sign up with Pamela Meister, the Council Administrator, before the public hearing is called to order. Public Hearings are posted on Public Meeting Calendar on this website, in the local newspapers, listed on the agenda that runs on Harford Cable Network, and posted on the Council’s bulletin board at 18 Office Street.
Address the Council during a Legislative Session
Citizens may address the Council on matters of pressing and immediate importance during “Citizen Input.” There is a time limit of three minutes and the subject matter cannot consist of any that is currently before the Council, such as zoning cases, legislation, etc. Speakers are required to sign up with Pamela Meister, the Council Administrator by calling the Council office prior to 4 p.m. the day of the meeting and ask to address the Council under the agenda item “Citizen Input.”
Individuals may address the Council under the agenda item “Comments from Attending Citizens.” There is normally no time limit placed on remarks made under this item and you can address almost any topic except subject matters that are currently before the Council, such as zoning cases, legislation that has not had a public hearing, etc. Citizens must sign up with Pamela Meister, the Council Administrator, before the Legislative Session is called to order.
________________________________________
Questions? Contact the Council Administrator, Pamela Meister at 410-638-3343
Well said – this should be the final clariant call to any citizen interested in the future of this county. I promise you we will lose whatever quality of life left here if we don’t insist on responsible and reasonable growth. That means getting involved and voicing objections not just for this store, but other proposed commercial developement because if we don’t this county will end up just like parts of Baltimore County or Montgomery County.
The citizens should have been voicing objections against proposed swaths of single family housing years ago and advocating mized use developments so that both residences and commerce gradually grew together. But now it’s just large tracts of houses, big box stores, acres of treeless townhomes, strip mall, strip mall, strip mall, a sad one-acre park here and there, 750 more single family homes with no sidewalks and one road in and out. Why do people move into the typical American car-oriented suburb and get mad when there is traffic and new box stores and new houses popping up around them?
Well said…Heck no. The end of the article repeats itself….the end of the article repeats itself. I think its a shame that walmart can come in here and push the citizens around. Where is this council man who does so much for companies when ya need him?
If anyone thinks the largest and richest corporation in the world cares about Bel Air, I have some land in a Florida swamp I’ like to sell.
I’d
PTBL, this is your best quote ever. Congratulations, and make all of your blogs this intelligent.
Red Man: I had to make easy enough for you to understand.
The traffic engineer is using the Institute of Transportation Engineers Trip Generation Rate for it’s trip generation numbers. You can see these numbers by going to
http://www.ci.troutdale.or.us/publicworks/documents/itelanduselist.pdf Now these are peak hour numbers and they are per unit, a unit is 1,000 sq.ft. so the proposed Walmart is 185,706 sq.ft. which equates to 185.7 trips per unit.
I spoke to the Traffic Engineer last night and they are using 4.61 Trips Per Unit (or 4.61 x 185.7 = 856 trips per hour (TPH))as taken from the “Free Standing Discount Superstore” description(as shown on page two under the Retail Section.) I do not believe this is the correct number. They should at minimum be using a Supermarket which generates 10.5 Trips Per Unit (or 10.5 x 185.7 = 1,950 trips per hour), and that number should even be higher if they are to be open 24 hours. Look at a Convenience Market open 15 to 16 hour a day it generates 34.57 Trips Per Hour (or 34.57 x 185.7 = 6,420 trips per hour), or a 24 hour Convenience Market 52.41 Trips Per Unit (or 52.41 x 185.7 = 9,733 trips per hour), or how about a how about a Pharmacy/Drugstore with Drive-Through Window which generates 10.35 Trips Per Unit (or 10.35 x 185.7 = 1,922 trips per hour). Anyway you slice it the number should be higher than the 4.61 Trips Per Unit that the Walmart Traffic Engineers are using in their study. Now these numbers are per hour so they are multiplied by the hours open so for instance if they are open 24 hours and you use their 4.61 Trips Per Hour you get 856 TPH x 24 hr = 20,544 Trips Per Day (TPD), using the 24 hour market 9,733 TPH x 24 hr = 233,592 TPD. Also keep in mind that these numbers can be reduced bu 40% for the “passby” trip reduction. What that means is people may be in the area in the area and just happen to stop at the Walmart. In other words you would have traveled that road even if there was no Walmart at that location. So 20,544 TPD would be reduced to 12,326 TPD and the 233,592 TPD would be reduced to 140,155 TPD. The bottom line to me is the Traffic Engineer is using numbers that fit the store instead of using correct numbers which would show that the store does not work, they seem to be shoe horning the model to work with the surrounding area.
The person commenting about the traffic calculations is correct. The “projections” are entirely intended to put the best possible face on the issue. We have seen these before in other situations. A friend in the business has admitted that they are unrealistic, and intended to lull the affected. That particular stretch of 924 has traffic accidents daily. Additionally, that area has a significant population of the retired and elderly. There are several neighborhoods right there designed for the elderly, and Lorien is also right there with their residents and visitors. And Patterson Mill school with those young drivers…. Dumping a large number of new shoppers into a small stretch of road heavily populated with challenged drivers (young and old) sounds like a deadly mix.
Or you could use apparel store, since a large portion of the store is clothes, at 3.83 TPU. Or a garden center at 3.80 TPU, since they do have a large protion dedicated to that. Or sporting goods at 3.10 TPU, or electronics at 4.50 TPU, home improvement at 2.37… all departments within the store, all lower than 4.61. Maybe 4.61 is an proportional average of those uses. Maybe there are only few discount superstore chains (target and walmart) and that number is well-founded based on actual evidence from such stores. You can manipulate the numbers to suit your argument, but do you really think the store will see 233,592 cars every day? The population of the County is 244,000 people. So everyday, the whole County will visit this Wal-Mart.
Welcome Wal Mart. I can’t wait for it to open and I hope I can be the first in line to shop there. We should welcome all responsible business to Harford County so that we can collect their taxes and enjoy the benefits of that money.
Isn’t Constant Friendship in Harford County? We are already getting these taxes. Obviously you don’t live 924 and don’t care about those that do. What ARE you concerned about?
It doesn’t help the protestors when the Sun shows a photograph of multiple “No 9/24 Walmart” signs. If you can’t give the right road number, are you even from the affected area, or just protesting against Walmart on principle?
After initially threatening to boycott the new Walmart location altogether, local residents realized that it would be foolish to turn their back on the store’s low prices and variety of products and services.
Consequently, Emmorton residents will express their distaste for the evil behemoth Walmart every September 24 (9/24) by pledging to not spend more than $100 on that day and by insisting to pay full price for prescription drugs rather than Walmart’s charge of $4.
Said new area resident and longtime complainer Ima Jo King, “I’m mad as heck, and I’m not going to take it anymore. When I bought my townhouse in Bright Oaks, I thought that I was buying in a rural area with many farms and forests and no traffic whatsoever. Imagine my surprise when I opened my front door one day and noticed that there were many other homes and businesses in close proximity. I thought that my development would be the last thing to be built in the county, but apparently Walmart has other plans.”
She continued, “To show how fed up I am, I and many of my neighbors have put up these “No 9/24 Walmart” signs. We are pledging to not shop at the Walmart on every September 24 — well, we might shop there, but we won’t spend a lot of money.”
sarcasm…check
humor…check
irony…check
someone without a life….check
That sign was supposed to be a way of incorporating both “24” and “924” on the same line. Too many 24’s would have looked confusing. If you were smart it would seem obvious to you.
Always nice to see you consistently not going personal Money Tree… Would that by lying or hypocrisy? I’ve lurked for a while, but you can bring me out.
This conversation is about Walmart – whatever odd personal issue you have with me is inappropriate with the thread. You have a pro or con about Walmart let’s hear it otherwise zip it libtard.
This conversation is about Walmart – whatever odd personal issue you have with me is inappropriate with the thread. You have a pro or con about Walmart let’s hear it otherwise zip it libtard.
Money Tree, initially I was just going to ignore this juvenile post, but thought about it and need to clarify a few things for you.
First, my “odd personal issue” is just you. You are a liar and hypocrite. I despise both, therefore, you fit the bill perfectly.
Second, I have no opinion on this Walmart. I live out in the county where the road gets crowded with farm equipment. I believe, though, in free enterprise and Walmart can do what Walmart wants. It is their money, leave them alone.
Third, “libtard.” Nice one. You may want to know me before you put any label on me. I’m far more conservative than you to be sure – the old fashioned kind – not this neo-con garbage embraced by the Republican party of late. Also, the “tard” must be a play on the word “retard.” Nothing like a class act to pick on people who cannot defen themselves from ignorant and ridiculous people like you and Al Gore – no, I did not forget his chromosone comment.
Enjoy your life, but first think of other less fortunate people first – then comment.
Seek help.
Ask anyone where the Abingdon Walmart is, I bet they’ll say on 24 at I95.
What’s a few more cars…I say widen 924 to double lanes on both northland/southbound sides and we are good to go.
There would be less cars if people from the neighborhoods right next to the shopping centers they shop at WALKED or BIKED or god forbid used a bus to get around. There were about 500 cars at the high school last night. Had it not been raining, I can garauntee there would have been as many. We were planning to walk over, but due to the torrential rain, we changed plans and got in the car like everyone else in the neighborhood and drove 0.7 miles to the meeting.
I live very close to the Abingdon Wal Mart in the constant friendship townhomes, heck my husband works at the Lowes and he used to ride his bicycle to work until he got hit by a silver Mazda that just took off and didn’t look back. So i’m gonna stick with driving my car since 1) I don’t know how to ride a bike, 2) my husbands bike is destroyed, 3) he honestly has no want to ever sit on a bike again after the incident.
Also I have a 2 month old little girl and would never walk with her in this kind of heat! and public transportation is not something her immune system is ready for either. Besides I don’t like the idea of my shopping schedule being determined by the bus run times.
Tollgate Rd and Constant Friendship overall are about as bike and pedestrian friendly as a place, but unfortunately the Constant Friendship shopping center is not at all. They did put in that crosswalk, which is helpful, but overall it was never intended for anything but cars. I ride a bike a lot and endorse it compared to the average person and I would not ride my bike in that shopping center during normal business hours.
This is where we need to get developers to make the entire center bike and pedestrian friendly, beacuse if it were, you wouldn’t have as many concerns about it.
And that is more than installing some token sidewalks.
There’s supposed to be a committee working on a bike path plan for HC…not sure how far it will go as the just passed federal transportation bill (Map-21) striped funds for bike paths. That trickle down won’t happen and I can imagine there will be zero money for building paths for the county tax base and that would be unfortunate. I can’t imagine how much courage it takes to ride a bike around here – narrow roads and people hostile to bikes in the first place. Not exactly conducive to a relaxing ride.
Money Tree: More information on that here…
http://www.harfordcountymd.gov/PlanningZoning/index.cfm?ID=904
I agree with widening all the roads in this overpopulated, low density infrastructure county. I do not agree with your support of Walmart in the new location. I still cannot understand why we have two Targets within 10 miles of each other.
I hope you are willing to open your checkbook to make that happen.
You are three years too late to complain about this property being rezoned from.residential to business. If you didnt speak then, why now when it is a done deal? Right now you can push for great landscaping, etc. And let’s all be sure that anyone who so strongl
I think we need to hire an Attorney who specializes in zoning in Harford County.
The group should be their own resource. There is bound to be a few real estate lawyers in the no-walmart group who could advocate the cause.
Used to be; maybe still is a national “no Walmart” group who had specialist that would advise as to how to fight big box stores. We also might contact folks in another jurisdiction that had been successful at keeping them out and get advice.
Common Sense, YE$, you $hould hire an attorney. That will $how Walmart.
Why not see if you can hire an attorney on a contingency fee basis? If they can’t stop Walmart from building there then they don’t get paid. Yes, I am being sarcastic.
A good attorney will first tell you that you are quite likely wasting your money if you expect him or her to stop Walmart from building a store there. Then, if you insist, they will happily take your fee. I think you should do it.
Here is what is happening. First we all insisted on zoning regulations and government planning. Then we got that along with the bureaucrats and regulations and costs that accompany it. Now we have a company that is proposing to build a store in accordance with what we all insisted earlier that we just had to have. And got. Now some of us don’t like that either because in this instance it is not convenient for us. Sounds like a bunch of little children playing a game and demanding a rule change half way thru by throwing a tantrum when it looks like they won’t win.
What is ironic in all of this are the posters who complain about overcrowding, high traffic and loss of the quality of life in Harford County. Most of these people moved here from somewhere else and have created all that they now condemn. But, they want the doors of the county shut now. They should have been shut 40 years ago. As a native American, our land was confiscated and we had to learn to live with it. So, learn to live with Walmart because this is America and it is coming. Get over it.
@those who think we dont “need” another walmart, whom do you propose gets to decide that? need has nothing to do with capitalism and democracy. Our duly legislated and enacted zoning permit this use on this property. Who else is authorized to over rule these laws?
why the big fuss now? This property was zoned residential until the last comprehensive zoning 3 yrs ago. Due process was followed when this property owner requested this zoning change. You think the owner should have asked the “public” what should be built? of course not.
Are you saying that Capt Jim somehow foisted his clever walmart plan on the county council who then somehow used all their power to beg walmart for another store? clearly you understand neither the legislative process nor the checks and balances of our three part democratic system. Just how do you envision ridding Bel Air of this project……legally, that is?
Another thought: certainly the opponents of this project will stick to their principles and their proclamations that they will never shop at this Walmart. We expect these many hundreds of opponents never to darken the doorstep of this store. That will definitely help reduce the traffic problems.
It’s called free speech. The voting public always should voice their opinion. I say kudos to all those stepping up to voice what they believe. An apathetic public is all too common these days. Fight it the best you can!
Freespeech, I agree with you about free speech. However, some battles are worth fighting and some are not. Choose your battles carefully.
Or support it the best you can. Remember, Sam, there are a lot of people who want the new Walmart on Plumtree. They just aren’t as vocal as those who don’t. And there just might be more of them.
You could be right Alex. Personally I think the average person really doesn’t care one way or another. You have a fringe 30-40% who are informed and opininated enough to do anything either way, and the other 60-70% just want cheap socks and ample parking.
It is fairly typical for anything like this that the only vocal people are the ones against it, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are wrong, or even a minority of the whole– you just can’t tell. Which is why being engaged and having a voice is so critical to any civic movement, because government has nothing else to go on when making decisions.
Other than corporate funding of campaigns, that is.
“The world is always a democracy in times of flux, and the man with the best voice will win.” – Orson Scott Card
What a bunch of dumbasses (yeah I know it’s my name), but hey… at least when Wal Mart builds a new Super Duper Super Center in the middle of cluster **** zone, Target will bring in estimators to start planning a Super Target right next to it. LMFAO
Face it, Harford County is land of Banks, Pharmacies, and Shopping centers… gone are the days of trees, and vast space.
Walmart can be stopped.
Just ask the people of Chestertown they did it!
46 years in this county and I have watched it being raped by developer’s. Do you really think the average citizen can stop this? Hell No. Pick a new fight because Wal-Mart already won this one.
Can we please get a Bass Pro shop. For ***** sake.
I agree, anything that gives the D*ck’s near the MVA competition is a good thing. Cabela’s would be awesome, but they would probably go for Cecil County more than Harford.
Remember when Cabela’s was the original choice to occupy the land where Hollywood Casino in Perryville now sits?
There was also talk of Bass Pro Shops moving into vacant grocery store space in the Constant Friendship Shopping Center – to be near Wegman’s – but it ultimately wasn’t enough space.
A store manager at the Abingdon Wal-Mart told me a few weeks ago that she heard Bass Pro Shops was moving in. However, the Wal-Mart rep I talked to on Thursday denied this was the plan, saying redevelopment of the site would be determined once the move to Bel Air was set and that it may involve multiple retail users. Bass Pro Shops corporate spokesperson said he had was not aware of any announcement.
Having a Bass Pro Shop in Harford County would be fantastic!
The employees at Wegmans also told me that a Bass Pro was supposed to be built in the complex. I asked employees at the Bass pro in Arundle and they said they had no plans to open a new store. It would be great. There is a lot of fishing and boating in the area. We are stuck between Arundle mills and Harrisburg. Both are too far.
If you dont want the Wallmart then buy the property and put whatever you want on it.
This might be the best comment of all of the ones posted here. If all of you opponents really want to stop Walmart then pool all your money and buy the property and YOU pay the taxes on a piece of commerical land with in the Bel Air town district. I’m guessing then you would be welcoming Walmart with open arms then too.
Please stop the defeatist attitude. We need to keep up the pressure. Walmart has one-year to submit plans to the Development Advisory Committee (DAC) then there will be a DAC meeting that will be open to the public. The community will be notified two weeks in advance of the DAC meeting which are held on Wednesdays at 9:00 am. All the county reviewing agencies will be there so it is important that the community attend this meeting. In the mean time everyone needs to write the County Executive, Director of Planning and Zoning and Councilman. Be polite and state the facts of why you oppose this development. Here are the addresses:
County Executive
David R. Craig
Harford County Government
220 South Main Street
Bel Air, MD 21014
Director of Planning and Zoning
Pete C. Gutwald
220 South Main Street
2nd Floor
Bel Air, MD 21014
County Councilman District ‘C’
James V. McMahan
212 South Bond Street
1st Floor
Bel Air, MD 21014
Indeed you can slay the giant but only when the giant finally recognizes it’s not in his interest. We need to organize – lone voices are more easily ignored. When is the next community meeting of concerned citizens?
The Abingdon Community Council meets on the 4th Monday of every month (tonight!) at the Abingdon Library at 6:30pm. Walmart is not on the agenda this evening, but we do have some open forum time built into each meeting for members of the community to raise their concerns. Tonight we will hear a presentation about the proposed arts center off Tollgate and Wheel Road.
Members of the ACC were at the Walmart Community Input Meeting Thursday. The August meeting agenda has not been set, but it will probably include some discussion of this development in some form.
I am not aware of any other groups or organizations with a scheduled meeting regarding the development plans at this time, but the next step would be to look out for the Community Input Meeting summary from Walmart to be posted to the Planning and Zoning website. I have heard several people suggesting that residents should go to the next County Council meeting on September 4th.
If you would like to keep updated on this and many other issues impacting the Abingdon area, you can sign up for email updates by writing to us at abingdoncc at gmail.com, or by visiting our Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/abingdoncc … and you can learn more about the Harford County Community Councils by visiting http://www.harfordcountymd.gov/CommunityCouncil/
Consider coming to our meeting tonight if you can, thanks.
Thanks. I’m for the new Walmart and I will be sure to let them know.
Are you all going to fight this hard when Walmart builds the new Sam’s Club next to this new Walmart? That is why Walmart needs this location. They cant fit a larger Walmart store and a large Sam’s Club store at the current location in Abingdon. Think about it.
I’m looking foward to it. I live over by the old Walmart now. My community would love to see this happen. I only wish I owned this new property I would try to sell it to Walmart and Sam’s Club too.
Lets start a new group today:
NO OLD WALMART IN ABINGDON
Actually, if you look at the site plan, I think you’d find that they would have a lot of difficulty fitting any other big box store into the Plumtree site. One of the parcels is already being turned into a storage facility, and there are 2 others, I think, which are significantly smaller than the Walmart parcel, so I think you’re completely wrong.
And, according to this article from 3 years ago, WalMart closed its Sams Club division in Canada, and if you look at their reasons, it seems clear they don’t intend to keep up Sams Clubs for the long haul. They have found that their Supercenter format kills two birds with one stone.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123568673767887129.html
And also, two years ago they closed 10 Sams Club stores in the US.
So while it’s possible they could decide it’s beneficial to convert the old store to a Sam’s Club (they have done this before), they would have to wait until 2018 because of the deed restriction on groceries. All of this leads me to believe it’s unlikely, but possible.
I live much closer to the old Walmart than the new one, and I am not a WalMart shopper, so I won’t miss it one bit if it moves.
Regarding the “developer areas” noted on the map: I asked Wal-Mart reps about them and they are not part of this project and not being developed by Wal-Mart, which is only purchasing the 17 acres shown and perhaps some portion of the storm pond area, officials said.
The other two areas represent potential future development; they are also zoned B3. It’s my understanding that the storage facility is not on the map above, meaning that the 2 acre area on the map is in addition to the storage facility, which is currently under construction.
Thanks for the additional information. Of course there’s no reason WalMart couldn’t decide to buy the remaining parcels in the future, or even be planning to do so, but just not talking about it right now. For the same reason the County prefers not to publicize land they are thinking of buying, companies will do the same. I still don’t think it’s enough room for anything like a Sam’s Club.
I had heard the opposite about the 2 acre parcel and the storage facility, but I’ll take your sources over mine (hearsay) at this point. I’d like that to be true, because that’s the 2 acres I’d like them to buy and put in a playground.
A storage facility in that location is another property value killer.
Great location for a storage facility. You can clean out your house, store all your unused items in the storage place, then go next door to Wal-mart to buy some more unnecessary but cheap, made-in-China items to take back home. Honestly, I do not understand why there are so many storage facilities around.
The real start to this was when the county council under Rehrman or Harkins passed the envelope development zone. That was the death notice to any open space in central Harford. Ironic, some/most of the same people protesting the Walmart benefitted from the envelope which included the housing they now enjoy.
Just curious, how many people here have lived in Harford County for 25 years or more? I have been in this county since it was a quiet, beautiful place. We started out living in Abingdon in what is now Constant Friendship’s town home city. We were surrounded by farm, able to sit on our deck at night listening to the cows moo. Under Eileen Rehrmann & with the help of Roni Chenowith, the developers must have greased their palms so much that they decided a massive part of Harford County needed to be ruined. We successfully stopped the development of the area where the existing Abingdon Walmart is back in 1990 by taking it to a vote. The voters decided against the development but the Executive and council members decided they would get around it by changing the zoning, the next thing you knew, here comes Walmart. We moved to a quieter side of Abingdon until the development became too much and now reside in what is the quiet part of the county in Pylesville. You all needed to open your mouths before this county became what it is! The development has been out of control for years. Vote out the people who allow this. Businesses should have been kept on route 40, redeveloping areas already developed all those years ago. What we have now is an overcrowded city. Just look at the intersection of 24 & 924 with a overpass now! Every main road is packed. Those of us here since before the 90’s, could never have dreamed what was to come. I hope this fight isn’t over and you send a big message to our reps, enough is enough! This county can’t handle another house or business.
I’ve been here since the very late ’70s and I resent your coming in the late ’80s and adding to the crowding and over-development.
Just kidding.
But when you came and when I came we added to the problem. Let’s stop with the “Now that I’m here then no one else should come”.
We certainly need some control over where stuff can be built but that’s what Planning and Zoning is supposed to be doing and that is what the envelope is supposed to accomplish. Not saying that it works they way you want it to all of the time or that it is perfect.
Have a nice life up there in Pylesville but please don’t come to the Bel Air / Abingdon area to do any shopping or to buy a car or get it fixed, etc. I wouldn’t want you to compromise your beliefs.
I understand the point of bringing up how things used to be and how they have become over a period of 20-40 years. All of us came from somewhere, even if it wasn’t here, and when we go “home” it’s always different and changing– or about to be. This is universal.
I have only been a resident of the the area for a handful of years, and I resent people acting like I am the devil for wanting to live in Harford County. You know what? I didn’t buy new construction. The house I bought had been there for many years already. And you know what else? I was already more knowledeable about the development going on in the area before I moved here than probably 90% of the people already living here. All the information is there for people to find. I knew about the 924/24 construction in 2005. I knew about the “T”, something lots of people still don’t know about, and I moved into the T.
I’m no tree hugger, but I do think some open space and green space is required for quality of life reasons in every community, and when I looked around Abingdon, I saw virtually no plans to preserve any of the green space in the community (now we have the Graham Estate).
I’m not anti development, and I’m not opposed to development within the envelope, but all of it has to be done in a responsible way with respect to infrastructure. I think most of us will acknowledge by just driving around Abingdon/Emmorton/Bel Air South that the traffic situation is a good indication that some places are beyond their capacity.
And just because people weren’t able to stop what came before that which created where we are now, is not any reason for me to give up on my community and forfeit the quality of life of every person in it.
If you personally don’t care, then don’t care. But don’t try to put someone else down for being actively engaged in their community and concerned about the general welfare. That is exactly what every corporation and developer in the world wants to happen. They don’t care about communities, traffic, pedestrians, trees, noise, light, or anything else more than they care about their money. I’m not putting them down for that, because it’s a business and that’s their job.
But being an informed, active, engaged citizenry is our job. I plan to do my job.
They don’t even respect the development envelope. There are right now 69 homes being shoehorned into 17 acres right along Harford and Connelly in Fallston. Developers own this town – I want to know who approved that sort of development outside the envelope; who signed off? Somebody’s getting rich – I smell a rat.
You ain’t seen nothing yet! Just wait until they start building the liquefied gas line through Fallston.
Answer: We did. I’m not terribly familiar with the area you are referring to, but looks like it is zoned R2 (on a scale of 1-4), which can include townhomes. But nobody pays attention during zoning time, as properly stated here previously.
Just read another 40 units going in next to the Red Pump School – remember the school that was put there as a gift to developers…the one that wasn’t wanted there and the one that suddenly subverted the greater need in other areas of the county. This property is zoned medium density…so why townhouses? Could it be that townhouses generally return more to the developer – they’ll get a lot more for them since they’re right next to the school. Do they really think we’re that dense? This is out of control.
Noble,
All of that is fine. I’m glad you came and I’m glad you are determined to be active, engaged and informed. Often you are a voice of logic expressing a reasoned opinion.
What gets to be a little tiresome for me is when a group of people want all of the development to be ‘somewhere else’. They don’t know where that somewhere else might be or what impact that might have on others just so long as it doesn’t inconvenience them. They will gladly go and patronize the businesses but “not in my neighborhood”. And in expressing that opinion they accuse everyone of taking bribes and all sorts of other illegalities with no actual evidence which, in my view, invalidates any thing else they might have said that otherwise could have been worth considering.
Alex if you believe that Red Pump deal didn’t stink up the place you’re pretty naive.
Alex, I think you hit it on the head. NIMY is a big philosophy. Then, everyone looks for reasons why it shouldn’t exist or why it should be placed elsewhere. One poster had the nerve to suggest a plot of land on Rt. 22. Can you imagine? Talk about the traffic, but it didn’t matter to the poster, just don’t put it in my neighborhood. Make what you will of the Red Pump School, but there were many residents of the proposed Campus Hills site that lobbied Dick Slutzky and others not to put that new school there. They pointed out that there are two public schools and Harford Community College already there and one more school will make that area impossible. Like you, Alex, I am tired of the whiners.
Alex, I agree. Everyone is entitled to their own NIMBY opinion and the freedom to express it, but don’t get upset when other people decide to tune it out.
NIMBY alone doesn’t usually accomplish a lot.
NIMBY…I don’t think anyone has suggested there won’t be development. I think folks hold thier nose when that development seems suspect and ill advised. There are many developments that go in with little push back. A Walmart half way to the center of town and in the middle of housing is absolutely the wrong place. I’ll stand by my comments about Red Pump – absolutely somebody did somebody a favor and to the detriment of the neighborhood and apparently it continues.
Wow! Awesome post. Could not have said it any better.
To those who keep referring to “whiners”: This is part of the process and free speech at its best. Stop hyperbole and stop labeling those opposed as “whiners” who are too late. It’s their right, and duty, to voice their opinion.
Joe, yes, we also have the right to be stupid, uninformed and possess the attitude of NIMBY. The question isn’t the right, it is should we be this way and then WHINE about it.
I wish that everyone could have stopped the JC Penneys that is being built near Wegmans. Their store in White Marsh is pathetic and I certainly didn’t want one in my backyard. And I agree that a Walmart on 924 is ridiculous. Yes, I love shopping at Walmart but this is the wrong location!
I live near there, and though ultimately I’d rather the whole thing stayed undeveloped, I understand when the writing is on the wall. Most of that Box Hill Boulevard Development was already in motion before anyone knew about it, and I’ll take what I can get.
Wegman’s is a world class grocer and they treat their employees better than almost anyone. I don’t shop there.
Penny’s is a respected company and at the very least is a new addition to the community. I think we could have done better, and I am extremely concerned about the financial state of the company right now, but again, it could be worse. Again, I don’t shop there.
At any rate, unfortunately, we can’t exactly pick and choose who goes where, that is up to the developer, but we can work with them as much as possible to convey what interests the community because ultimately, they all want to be successful, and it is our dollars that make them successful.
The original plans for the development included much more grandiose ideas, including a movie theater, and a main street (ie. Hunt Valley) type of shopping center. When the recession really set in, those plans were scaled back. I dont’ like the current design as much as the original, but I’m very happy that the size is smaller.
And that’s the issue for a lot of people with the Walmart, the size of the store and the impact that has on the community. It really can’t be stated how large it is and how much traffic it will bring to that area.
The Abingdon site off 95 and 24 is much more suitable to such a plan. And again, I don’t shop Walmart, and I live closer to the current location, so that’s not NIMBY.
Big box stores belong exactly where they are..no more incursion into downtown. Walmart has location already. Put somethere there that fits the scale of the neighborhood – even more housing is better than just another big box.
I think you read the story incorrectly. This store will be miles from any “downtown”.
I think you misunderstand my point. We have enough big box stores within that general vicinity. The closer to downtown the more likely it hurts downtown and not to mention the number of neighborhoods affected. Even the existing big box stores closer to downtown that already exist (eg. Home Depot and Target) are not right on top of neighborhoods. The ingress/egress from this new Walmart empties right across the street from several existing single family residential areas – that’s inappropriate.
To be fair, Home Depot does back up to neighborhoods.
But as you mentioned, the significant difference is the main access point: directly off 24.
That’s the single biggest problem with the WalMart site plan. It’s a disaster.
Not to mention that I’ve heard that some time in the future the light at Plumtree and 24 will be removed and the intersection taken out— then where does all the traffic go?? That is hearsay, but if it happened, it would be a total disaster for traffic in that area after a Supercenter is built.
Why don’t they turn the plan around, putting the back of the store up against the public storage facility now under construction, and the front of the store facing Plumtree with the main entrance on Blue Spruce? WalMart can’t afford to buy 2 more acres?
If you want to do it based upon employee satisfaction, when are you going to lobby for Costco to move in?
Whomever owns that land ought to be able to sell it for any profit offered. Where do you and others have the right to stop the sale to a buyer because you don’t want that large store. Who made you the decider of how many box stores are too many? Finally, what proof do you have that the school at Red Pump was built as a favor? You make a good story, how about some fact to back some of this up. As a resident of Campus Hills area, I know for a fact that we lobbied Slutzky heavily to not allow another school built in that area. We have Harford Community College, John Archer School, and Harford Technical High School already. The traffic on Rt. 22 is horrible, and this would just make it worse. Yes, people have residences over there also. So, where should Walmart build? You might as well decide that too. As an earlier poster stated, NIMBY doesn’t work to solve problems like this one.
Money Tree, I apologize for your name being placed at the bottom of that article. It was a mistake on my part.
SAMUEL tyler
No harm no foul, although it’s a bit disturbing to think anybody can use anybody else’s signoff. I would add that this really isn’t a NIMBY…it is inappropriate to put a big box store that has ingress/egress directly into a neighborhood road. It makes no sense. The citizens who live here have an absolute right to be concerned when the impacts of commerce and changes to zoning affect the quality of their lives. I would much prefer that over apathy…apathy got the citizens of Newark, NJ, Newark, NJ. Know what I mean?
You were aware of the coming 45 acre “sports complex” coming for Schucks Rd? It’ll be lit up like a christmas tree 24/7 and completed by 2013. There’s also a future plan to build an indoor stadium structure when funds become available – I might add the article I read said the demand for this recreation center is proposed to accomodate BRAC and the increased future development in that area. You’re traffic issues surely aren’t going to get better, nor does it seem anyone intends on slowing development in Campus Hills because you lack an elementary school.
“The project includes construction of five baseball diamonds, a soccer/lacrosse field, an entry drive, pre-engineered bridge, a pre-fabricated building for electrical equipment, asphalt paving, parking lot lighting, fencing, bio-retention areas, turf installation and grass and plantings.”
Money Tree, I think all of that development should be at 924 and Plumtree Road. Case closed, I decided it and all of my neighbors would agree.
It appears to me that there are three unique strategies and one derivation to approach this situation.
1. Place your fate in the hands of elected or appointed officials and hope that they will intervene on your behalf with a solution favorable to you. May happen but not likely, as there appears to be no valid justification to stop the building at this location.
2. Litigate. This is the derivation of placing your fate in the hands of others. There may not be any basis to stop the building, but maybe Walmart will become tired of fighting and give up.
3. Buy the property and do what you want with it. This was suggested once before. It has potential, but, how much does a white elephant eat on a daily basis? And the mess afterward? May not be viable.
4. Buy Walmart. Very possible, with a real potential to obtain a favorable solution to the situation. Cost too much? NO. Walmart (WMT) is a publicly traded company, current price @$73 dollars. If each opposing person buys one share, in your name, you can communicate directly with the board of directors and the CEO, and as owners, they will listen. Pool your shares and they listen even closer. The representatives at the public meeting were sent to catch the flack, your protests were no different than those of a hundred other at various locations. Your faces were lost on the plane ride home.
Additionally, get a list of all stockholders and communicate with them. Those stock holders include mutal funds, and pension funds. Let them know how you feel. Make sure that you know your rights as stockholders and drive on.
Interesting, John, but are there any strategies that are feasible and will actually work? The answer is no.
Your strategy #1 will probably produce some modifications to the proposed plans and Walmart already expects that to happen and is prepared to grant the requested mods if not too expensive. The reasons why the other 3 aren’t feasible are self-evident. At least to me.
AlexR
Sir/Ma’am
I would submit you are correct that the first three strategies probably won’t do much to effect a desired change. The last however does hold out the decent probability of changing the direction of Walmart. Stockholder activism is a very large concern for corporations. They would really not care to deal with unhappy stockholders, particularly when they are well organizsed and focused. When CALPERS started dumping South African stocks and encouraged everyone else to do the same, apartheid was over.
John,
Okay, let’s do the math. There are 3.38 billion shares of Walmart stock outstanding. The price of the stock is just under $74 per share. How many shares do you think the good local folks would need to own to have an impact on the Walmart Board and Management and how many people do you think would actually buy the stock for that purpose?
I’m going to throw out some numbers that, in my view, are outrageous but it helps with the analysis of the strategy. Let’s say you could get 5,000 local people to buy an average of 100 shares each of the stock. So we have 500,000 shares in the hands of locals who somehow found 36.5 million dollars laying around available to buy the stock. That is about 1.3 hundredths of 1 percent of the outstanding shares. And lets say they all raised havoc with the board. By doing what? Letter writing? Maybe. But they have to probably attend and disrupt the annual meeting. And what are they complaining about? That Walmart is opening a store. That’s what Walmart does. And every store they open there is someone who doesn’t want them to do it where they plan to do it.
A few hundred local people who don’t want a specific store, even of they own shares of stock, is not CALPERS and the cause is not apartheid.
AlexR
Sir/Ma’am
Math really does not have anything to do with it anymore. This is not a proposal to take over Walmart. It is an attempt to influence their direction.
As a direct result of some of the new laws enacted, minority stockholders have the ability to influence public corporations more so now than ever before.
For @$74 dollars what do people who are serious about changing Walmarts direction have to lose?. At worst they get their money back and maybe a little more. They will certainly get a better result this way than writing into the DAGGER and hoping for a better result.
The tipping point for Walmart, if there is one, is when they calculate that the costs of moving forward are not worth the costs of staying in the old location.
It’s possible that through a combination of things (opposition, litigation, demanded improvements, site plan modifications, etc) they could reach that point, but I doubt it. They have 20 years of increased revenues to weigh against that.
Our Councilman Cap’t. Jim and our County Executive David Craig still want our votes in 2014 so we need to put pressure on them to put pressure on Walmart to stay where they are or move to a more appropriate location. The Bel Air location will have detrimental effects to the physical and financial health of our community. The 20 intersections that they would be required to updated to meet the traffic study would be paid for by Walmart but the tax payers would be on the hook for the future repairs of these roads and they will be required due to all the traffic coming from all over the County to shop at this Walmart. The existing businesses in the area will be impacted and many I believe will be forced out of business. We have two automotive repair shops in this location one in the Festival, Mr. Tire, and one on Blue Spruce, National Tire and Battery. We have at least three pharmacies, Rite Aid, Walgreens, and the Shoprite. The Walmart Supercenter in Fallston has a Subway inside the store, we have a Subway in the Festival. We have a grocery store, the Shoprite. People will spend the same amout of money with or without a Walmart at this location if they spend it at Walmart they don’t spend it at the existing stores that presently service the community and should not become the victims. Giving up the fight now and then telling your representatives “I told you so” after it’s built will do no good. We need to continue the fight. Our worse case scenario will be to Boycott Walmart! If 800 people, from the community, showing up to a Community Input Meeting, in the pouring rain, have no input there is something wrong with system.
Walmart at will be great…………FOR CHINA!
????
Everyone needs to write the County Executive, Director of Planning and Zoning and Councilman and state the facts of why you oppose this development. Here are their addresses:
County Executive
David R. Craig
Harford County Government
220 South Main Street
Bel Air, MD 21014
Director of Planning and Zoning
Pete C. Gutwald
220 South Main Street
2nd Floor
Bel Air, MD 21014
County Councilman District ‘C’
James V. McMahan
212 South Bond Street
1st Floor
Bel Air, MD 21014
Questions that haven’t been answered:
Why can’t that outdated deed be changed, especially if the old Weiss is gone?
and
Is Walmart just set in their ways of opening a newer, nicer shop, in a much nicer area?
Finally:
Why isn’t the CC doing their job, stopping what isn’t wanted?
Here are your answers:
1. The lease (not deed) can be changed but apparently the leaseholder doesn’t want to do it which is their right.
2. You would have to ask Walmart why they want to open a store on Plumtree and close the other. I think they already answered that but you can ask them again. It is probably because they will be able to have a larger store and sell more merchandise than what they currently have in Abingdon. It is also because there are actually a lot of people who want it there even though you aren’t apparently one of them.
3. Stopping Walmart is NOT the job of the CE or the CC even though you want it to be their job. Making sure all laws and regulations are followed is their job. If the laws and the regulations don’t permit Walmart to build there then so be it. If they do permit it then why should the law be broken just to satisfy some people who are opposed? I have been opposed to a number of things being built in HarCo but the regulations permitted it so I and the others who were opposed just had to suck it up. Be prepared to do the same, or not, depending on what the rulings are.
Where is the County Executive on this one?
David Craig and all the members of the CC would definately bolster their re-election cause if they stopped this one.
Alas, I get the feeling, despite their presence at the public input meeting, they don’t have the cajones to stop it, or worse yet, are on WalMart’s side.
You and ELLIS seem to think the County Executive and the County Council can just make up laws and regulations to suit themselves or just ignore or waive existing laws and regulations to suit those who are opposed to the Walmart at the Plumtree location.
I’m sorry to tell you that it doesn’t work that way. They also have to obey the law on the books and the regulations that are in place. That is why they are called ‘laws’ and ‘regulations’ and not whims and emotions.
And, by the way, there are plenty of people who want the Walmart there and they don’t all work for Walmart. Those who don’t want it should boycott it when it opens. That way those who do want it will get better parking spots when they shop there.
In large measure they actually can often make it up – certainly influence but that’s before the little zone change that was made. As I understand it we had a master plan. That master plan was initially devised by a committee; the bulk of whom sitting on the committee were either developers themselves or friends of developers and I’ll certainly put David Craig on the later list. Once the plan was formulated suddenly there were a rash of adjustments by way of amendments – quite a few were zoing changes after the fact and before final adoption of the master. These were clearly requested and granted as favors – so I’ve got to assume they already voted when they changed the zoning. In digging through some of the events it’s of interest to note they voted down amendment no. 42 that was introduced by Woods/Guthrie that outlined redevelopment S of 95 in Joppa/Joppatowne and preservation of agricultural lands N of 95. Both very vocally defended the amendment but everybody else said no. Why you think that was – those areas aren’t in the districts most of them represent so I have to assume somebody got greased. This might be business as usual, but it’s certainly a surprise to me – thought these folks were all about preservation. I’m pretty sure we’re getting lip service about smart growth. They keep waiving around the left hand so we better watch what the right hand is doing. You know they provided copies of the master but didn’t publish the amendments until long after – why you think that was?
There are really only 5 things that matter here, in order:
1. Who has the money
2. What is legal/illegal
3. What the DAC/P&Z requires/requests
4. What is best for the community
5. What the people/WalMart want
Undoubtedly there are scores of people who like the idea of a Walmart at Plumtree, but I wonder if 1000 of them would show up at a meeting after the plans for the store were cancelled? Doubtful. They’ll just get in the car and buy cheap underwear at Constant Friendship and never think about it again.
As much as I get sick of hearing the one yahoo on here who likes to repeatedly ask if it’s okay that the government tell people what they can and can’t do with their land (yes you idiot it is okay), it also doesn’t accomplish anything — at this point — to talk about what “the people want”. The people had their chance and they blew it. Now they need to focus on the items further up the list above if they want to change something.
Yes, such as electing representatives that care more for their constituents than for developers.
Or perhaps having an electorate that pays attention to what is happening in their government more often than 30 days before the next election.
If you don’t like what your elected rep is doing you can and should always do 2 things. First, tell them by immediately writing, calling or e-mailing their office. You owe them and yourself that much. Just whining or applauding on The Dagger doesn’t do it. Second, if they don’t listen and you think their opponent is better then vote them out.
Noble,
I agree that 1,000 wouldn’t show up at a meeting to protest cancellation. Walmart has the money but equally the County also has the money. The County has lawyers and staff (employees)already being paid by taxpayers and Walmart has likely retained local counsel. So it really is what does the law say and what do the DAC/P&Z regulations, requirements and requests say.
And that is as it should be, in my view. The Dagger article by FOH on boring zoning meetings was spot on. We can’t set a bunch of rules for people who want to develop property (whether Walmart or apartments or condos or single family homes or strip malls) and then take the position that the “rules” were actually just “suggestions” and the final decision will be based on how many people we can get to support or oppose each issue as it arises.
You and I broadly agree on whether the government can tell people what they can or cannot do with their land but in my view the Kelo vs. City of New London ruling was a travesty. Even more so in that it is now becoming the basis for other attempted actions by cities in other areas.
Agreed, Kelo is going too far.
Agreed, but at the same time when putting a master plan together the committee should be composed of differently minded folks; not just a bunch of developers, the county executive and one poor woman trying to make a point from FOH. Even then we also agree that it’s mostly too late now – the time to be involved was back before the master plan was put together and finalized. The next time we ought to include historians, preservationists, environmentalists, educators, a few farmers and the same lady from FOH – and a couple of developers. It’s our fault we let them get away with this…
Alex –
Excellent comments, well done
ALEX I agree.
I mean to “Or perhaps having an electorate that pays attention to what is happening in their government more often than 30 days before the next election.
If you don’t like what your elected rep is doing you can and should always do 2 things. First, tell them by immediately writing, calling or e-mailing their office. You owe them and yourself that much. Just whining or applauding on The Dagger doesn’t do it. Second, if they don’t listen and you think their opponent is better then vote them out.”
Old Alex is getting agreement from both Noble and PTBL in the same day. Will wonders never cease?
And Porter agrees also? Wow! I guess I better retire from this Walmart topic while I am somewhat ahead.
Cash in those chips.
Harford County Executive Craig: “I Have Serious Concerns Regarding the Proposed Construction of a Walmart at the Site Discussed”
http://www.daggerpress.com/2012/07/31/craig-i-have-serious-concerns-regarding-the-proposed-construction-of-a-walmart-at-the-site-discussed/
I wish you all the best but I’m afraid it’s too late now to stop anything. Walmart is simply too much of a juggernaut. Just vote with your wallet once it’s there.
Let us all just stop shopping at Walmart right now! That will surely send them the message that we don’t want them anywhere around Harford County. Just kidding!
REALLY? All you whining spoiled people who parents left you inheritance who all been fed with silver spoons just jump off a cliff. Or maybe you still owe the bank for that so called property were you live. If this Wal-Mart will impact your lives this much you really need to get a life. I live in that area I work 12 hours a day 5 day a week and putting a Wal-Mart at that site would not impact my life one bit. I purchased my house in that area 8 years ago and in eight years I’ve seen growth in that area. Crime really??? what crime will this Wal-Mart bring??? Lights and noise really??? What about the positives what about jobs, what about good prices and convenience??
You all just a bunch of whining ass people. Not like it’s a liquor store or strip club its freaking Wal-Mart. All neighbors hoods have crime ALL OF THEM Edgewood has drugs so does Bel air. Along with child molesters in all you’re so called uppity neighborhoods. Just because your income levels maybe higher, just because some of you have little better education some of you just dumb as door knobs doesn’t mean that there is not crime in your own neighborhoods. Bel Air is the biggest fraud in Harford County. Full of alcoholics, prescription drug addicts and child molesters. Lastly if some of you hypocrites pay more attention to your husband’s molestering little children or your little sons on the internet learning how to order guns and learning how make bombs maybe the quality of your lives will improve……….
I’m a 40 year old married white male I’ve been married 16 years with 3 children…..none I mean non of this will impact me or my family…You all a bunch of peranoid losers who really need to get a life.
I’m so sick of this crap.You all the same people who protected against the casino yet flock there every week.
Okay, take a deep breath. Let’s try to be calm.
It’s hard to stay calm when something doesn’t impact your life “one bit”, apparently.
I’M SURE NONE OF YOU CARE ABOUT THE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE LIVES THAT WILL BE IMPACTED IF PEOPLE STOP SHOPPING A WALMART
SO MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE EMPLOYED THERE.
I’m sure you all don’t care because it’s not you losing your job or your families that will suffer…..love to see so many people who all worried about themselves……
For those who don’t want the Walmart:
FYI- Comprehensive zoning is done every eight years BUT the county executive can initiate it at any time.
Craig can stop the Walmart by changing the zoning.