From Laura O’Leary:
Dear County Executive Craig,
I have been teaching in Harford County for the past 14 years. When I came to Harford County from Cecil County, I took a pay cut – I came in a step down from my actual years in. The next year, teachers were not given their step increase. When I look at the published pay scale I realize that I am getting paid a lot less than my time in reflects.
I came back to Harford County to raise a family. I knew as a Harford County graduate that my children would get a high quality education. I did! Now I worry that Harford County’s low pay, lower than actually published, will make it difficult to attract high quality applicants. Wonderful young teachers both where I teach and at my children’s schools are leaving to go to better paying counties or over the border to Pennsylvania. It is a shame to see them go, but I can’t blame them. Both my husband and I teach in Harford County and we are bringing home less this year than we did 5 years ago because of a lack of raises, increases in health care costs and a fall off the fiscal cliff. Please compensate teachers for the worthwhile job they do!
Laura O’Leary
Dave says
Got some news for you. We are all bringing home less and giving the government more. Our governments, both federal and state, have turned from governing to extorting. Nevertheless, you state that you left Cecil County to come back to Harford County for a higher quality education. Is there something wrong with the Cecil County School System? Seems to me the liberals are getting exactly what they voted for. Screw the working people and long live the freeloaders!
Freetos and Cheestos says
Seems you are getting “thumbs down” by a lot of people who collect that free check every week.
Bill says
Laura , I must say I agree with Dave and other people who had similiar comments. You have no idea how good you have it. Your income has not gone backwards , your overall benefit package far exceeds most people in private business. You have a defined pension benefit, most in the private sector have 401K’s , that are effected by the stock market. You have off every holiday the government can invent. When it snows , I need to get up early and shovel then get to work , you roll over and go back to sleep. You have Tenure , I need to perform everyday. Your union fights performance standards everyday. Spend a year in the private sector and you will be begging for your government job back.
Keesha Jackson says
Dear Laura,
The HCPS has fallen off my radar and as long as Tomback leads it and Burbey is the union head and stuff happens like happened to Mrs. Darden I have turned a deaf ear to HCPS. Sorry, but maybe you can help get the mess cleaned up. Maybe not. But her me very clearly, HCPS has to make huge changes and then I might listen.
Cindy Mumby says
@Keesha Jackson: Decisions about Superintendent Tomback’s possible reappointment are coming soon: http://www.daggerpress.com/2013/01/24/a-callback-for-tomback-harford-county-public-schools-awaits-superintendents-decision-on-new-four-year-term/
KEESHA JACKSON says
Thanks, Cindy. When HCPS hires a really good replacement and Burbey starts standing up for teachers like Mrs. Darden (not the only teaher to get the royal shaft, just the latest) then I might care about the budget. HCPS and the BOE have been unresponsive to outside pressure so maybe the teachers can get changes made. Maybe not. Until changes are made – radical changes – my ears are deaf to their plight.
RC says
Dave is on the right tract… The funding source for harford county public employees including teachers falls mainly to the property tax payers, the majority of whom are in the private sector who have seen their income fall in the last 6 years, and fall dramatically in many cases. PA was mentioned… didn’t Harrisburg declare bankruptcy recently ? Public Unions are a conflict of interest in most cases… They negotiate for higher wages and benefits with those individuals that can be indebted to them by the influence of their voting block . At least here in Harford county things are not so cut and dry as in other parts of MD.
CDEV says
RC in PA all school boards are self funding with a school tax they can leavy themselves.
RC says
That might be a better way of handling it.. In general , I’m in favor of more local control of schools, both funding and curriculum. Maryland tends to be a more central government state. I am thankful that our county government has pushed back where they can from edicts sent down from annapolis ( not just concerning schools ) . But we have to admit… at some point, a balance needs to be reached between pubic and private sector incomes. And everyone should also be able to see the inherit conflict of interest in public sector unions.
Chris says
Laura… I wish the rest of Harford County residents were in your position. Take home pay is down for everyone. Health care costs are up for everyone. Teachers have a level of job security that us unmatched in the private sector, and you have benefits — today and in the future — that the vast majority of people do not have. You’ll have trouble finding a sympathetic ear from readers of this note to the County Executive. Your salary comes from me and my neighbors and all the taxpayers in Harford County. Do you think we are in a position to prop up teachers even more when we are hurting ourselves?
joe says
I find that hard to believe when I drive through Cedar Day, Glen Angus, etc.
Kharn says
Drive through Edgewood, Aberdeen and Joppatowne sometime. A county’s tax base or ability to pay its public employees isn’t defined by the weathliest residents in hand-picked ritzy developments.
CDEV says
True, when they dress their kids in the finest Hollister apperal they are hurting too!
Steve Jacobs says
I have customers in Glen Angus that lost their businesses and homes.
Freetos and Cheestos says
I don’t care either, everyone’s wages is down while everything else is costing more. What does this specifically have to do with “you”?
I bet a lot of these “Me first” people are the ones who voted again for the same liberals who preached “change” and other trumped up media shows.
There’s your change.
K says
Boy, I thought I was going to be the first person to comment on the fact that my two income family has also dealt with nonexistent wage increases for the past four years. But, it looks like many folks beat me to it. I attended a community meeting this past week. The main focus was a potential RV Park being developed behind the new shopping complex in Fallston. An interesting older gentleman was speaking on the negatives of the topic and was asked to wrap up because another speaker wanted time. Low and behold, while we all were revved up about this project, Ryan Burbey, who I had never seen in my life, stands up and starts telling us how we must attend a meeting coming up so teachers can get more money. Frankly, I got up and left. I suppose his placement and timing were off. My point is when unions stop dictating to members and stop lining the pockets of politicians/groups/democrats specifically, then I’ll be more than glad to support your causes.
Steve Jacobs says
I’m self-employed and my income has dropped dramatically in the past five years. My family medical insurance has gone up 15% a year and is now $13k annually.
So I’m sorry you make less now, but you are not alone.
My brother in law just got a job with NSA and his starting pay is $90K annually. He was self-employed and his company wasn’t doing well either.
So if you’re not happy with your pay, then find something else to do.
Mike says
LOL. It seems that your pleas for more money are falling on deaf ears. Please realize that the private sector, which pays for EVERY CENT of your paycheck has taken severe hits over the last few years. Don’t be angry at taxpayers. Without their hard work, dedication, and the necessity that they put in whatever it takes to make a living your paycheck would say ZERO. The city, the county, the state, and the Federal Government doesn’t have a dime that it doesn’t take from someone WHO HAS EARNED IT. I hope you consider these comments and offer a public apology to those that you have offended.
Really says
“Hot debate. What do you think?”….I think Mike is an arrogant, pompus ahole. Any other questions?
Steve Jacobs says
Yea, I was trying to be nice…….but I would be embarrassed posting that letter on a message board, especially using her real name.
B says
I would be glad to pay Laura more, on a merit based system, if she is a good teacher. However, I am not willing to pay anymore in taxes until the government spending as a whole is under control.
Jim in hickory says
Makes my blood boil when the powers to be are all happy when there is a money surplus in the county coffers at the end of the year, so everyone gets a raise!!! WOOOOO HOOOO!!!! Thought never crosses their minds to give it back to the people it was extorted from.
HYDESMANN says
Maybe Gov. O’Malley can give Ms. O’Leary some of the millions he and the people who voted for him have earmarked for in-state tuition for illegals. I feel sorry for her but times are tough for all of us and are going to get a lot tougher ( sales tax increase, gas tax increase etc).
Jim in hickory says
Laura perhaps you have missed Cindys other articles on school enrollment numbers decreasing and schools that are under utilized from a lack of students? You can search the dagger site for them they are a good read. Till then be happy you and your husband have taxpayer funded jobs with benefits, many don’t and all the numbers show you will probably be facing some challenging times in the not so distant future.
Maybe you can start your own school…..
Steve Jacobs says
Or we could raise the debt ceiling and print more money……oops, we already do that!
I Left says
Most of the folks commenting on this are missing the main part of Laura’s letter. Her concern is more about the quality of education in the county than anything else. She sacrificed personal income when she came to Harford–because of the quality of the education. Her concern is that, by routinely advertising one pay scale and then pulling a bait and switch, the best young teachers will leave.
I sympathize with Keesha’s comment about all of the disfunction within HCPS. The problem is that classroom teachers can’t do anything about that. Central administration takes their (increasingly large) chunk of the funding and says “screw the teachers” (and by default, the education of your children). When the teachers do the only thing they can do to fight that (speaking out to the public–ie: letters like Laura’s), the public all too often says “screw the teachers.” When is the public going to see that demonizing the teachers only serves to prolong the problem? YOU have the ability to change the way things are run, if only you would mass together and write letters, cast votes, attend board meetings, etc. But it’s apparently easier to make a scapegoat out of the people getting insulted and demeaned from both ends.
Two last little bits for you folks to think about.
First–for those of you trying to characterize Laura as greedy, you have NO idea how far off you are. I used to work with her. She’s one of the most upbeat, positive people I’ve ever met in my life. The LAST thing she would ever do is complain just to complain or out of any sense of greed. If she’s speaking out, then HCPS is pretty damn near rock bottom.
Second–You might also take a moment to realize that she’s 100% correct. Younger teachers are leaving in droves. Their replacements are all too often people who either didn’t do the research about HCPS’s bait and switch salary schedule or weren’t good enough to get a job in a better paying county. This has been going on for a few years now. Thanks to the dedication of teachers like Laura (and a bunch of the other veteran teachers in the school system), your children are still getting a wonderful education from dedicated professionals. Think on this though–what happens when THEY start to retire or finally get fed up and leave (or, as in the case of Mrs. Darden, get forced out via a “plan of assistance” because they are deemed too expensive)? You will end up with just the kind of diminished, low-quality school system you see in other counties where teachers are seen as the enemy rather than as an ally. When that happens, and your homes take a massive hit on value (study after study has shown a HUGE connection between school quality and home value), maybe then you’ll stop blaming your teachers and start listening to what it is they are actually saying.
BTW–I’m one of those teachers who left for greener pastures. I’m now in the private sector, and I’ve got to tell you–while I miss working with the kids and with colleagues like Laura, I do NOT miss being regularly lied to by central admin and being lambasted by the public for being upset about those lies.
Jim in hickory says
OMG!!!!
I’m so afraid, it’s for the children!!!!!
Sell your fear somewhere else.
The problem is easy to fix, start firing excess teachers, close some schools, get rid of half the useless maintenance personnel, sell the empty buses that drive around and divvy the funds up among those left standing. This ain’t rocket surgery.
I Left says
Your maturity staggers the imagination. Again, I have no reason to “sell” fear or anything else. I got out. I’m no longer in the profession, the county or in the state for that matter. Aside from my concern over a few friends I still have in HCPS, I have no stake in this issue. All I wrote was pure fact. Money is being wasted in central administration. I’ve long said that I think it’s possible to CUT the amount of funding going to education AND fully fund teacher contracts. Rather than address that waste, people want to attack teachers (the ONE part of HCPS that has gone on austerity measures for the last half decade). It’s absurd, and you are seeing the impact of it already. But go ahead and keep up the attack. In five or ten years, when your home values are tumbling and Harford starts (continues) its slow descent into something more akin to PG County or Baltimore City, maybe then you’ll wake up.
K says
I’m curious, why the current disparity among schools success rates? Are you suggesting it’s going to get worse when all our teachers leave? Our home values have been on the decline for the past four years. It’s going to get worse when all of HCPS’ workforce finds employment in the private sector? Your real estate argument has also been used nationwide ad nauseum . Crime rates, type of housing, proximity, etc. also impact home values.
Jim in hickory says
Well gee, don’t misinterpret home values sinking because we all don’t want to pay more taxes and higher salaries to government employees and all that will be left is the dregs, as selling the fear….
Nope that’s not it at all……
If we pay our teachers more exactly how much will my home value increase?
I Left says
They do. A UCONN economist (Paramita Dhar) who was fairly skeptical about the impact of school quality on home value did a study a little over a year ago in the Fall 2011 issue of The Connecticut Economy. Her stated intent was to do what you just suggested–isolate the impact of school quality on home value outside of things like neighborhood quality and such (Frankly, I see the two as interrelated on the large scale, since people frequently look at school quality when deciding on a neighborhood. Poor schools leads to less desirable neighbors which leads to poor neighborhoods, but I digress). She found that while the connection between school quality and home value (previously stated to be 30 to 40 percent) was exaggerated, she found (much to her own chagrin) that it was still around 25%.
Yes, home values have fallen from their artificially high pre-crash levels. My point is that, if you allow the schools to go too much further along this downward spiral, those values could fall up to (according to Dhar’s conservative study) 25% more. This would not just be from teachers leaving for the private sector. As I said–I left, as have many people that I know. Teachers like Laura and a bunch of others (those in the middle years of their careers who have too much invested to leave HCPS) have managed through almost superhuman effort to keep HCPS as a high quality school system.
My point was that when those teachers leave (via retirement or being forced out like Mrs. Darden), the school system won’t have many high quality teachers to fill that void. A school system that lies about its salary schedule and demeans its teaching staff doesn’t tend to attract many high-quality younger teachers. Think of it like a sports team. The best teams have a mix of vets and youth. HCPS has already chased out much of the talented youth. When the vets move on, all you’re going to have left is a bottom feeder of a team/school system. And that WILL impact your home values and neighborhoods negatively and significantly.
Again–I’m not trying to scare anybody. If you all allow that to happen, it will have no impact on me whatsoever. I’m out, as are most of my friends that were in that “young teacher” category. You’re the ones that live there. It’s up to you to decide what you want your county to look like in 10 years. Again, I don’t think it’s about taxing more or budgeting more money to the school system. I think it’s about getting active and demanding that the money the school system already gets is spent wisely (ie: on things that actually impact the education of the students). Right now, the attitude seems to be that the teachers should have to do that. They’ve tried. Usually, when they speak up about such things, they get smacked down. They have no power over central admin, and central admin has created a culture of fear–rock the boat, lose your job. You and the rest of the people living in the county can actually make a difference.
That’s what drew me to post in here in the first place. Too many of you have interpreted Laura’s letter as a greedy request for your money. It’s not. It’s a request for your help to set the school system back on the right track where the money isn’t being wasted and people are treated with professional respect.
Kharn says
I Left:
You’re leaving out something important: Poor schools have poor students.
When a kid shows up to school high, buzzed or hung-over, sore from the beating his mother’s live-in-boyfriend doled out and involved in a culture where learning isn’t cool, he’s going to put limited effort into learning. When the students do not attempt to learn, the teachers slowly give up, until eventually the students and community have the teachers they deserve.
Steve Jacobs says
Maybe you’re not paying attention to current events, but our property values have already fallen.
But Harford County should have no problem surviving as most of the residents are government employees.
I Left says
“Maybe I’m not paying attention”? I specifically acknowledged the fact that the housing bubble artificially drove up home values, and that they have since fallen from that high. That’s true of the vast majority of the nation. This is completely distinct from price fluctuations that happen as a result of long-term school quality. It really isn’t that difficult a concept, but then since your second comment was nothing more than a partisan talking point, I don’t suppose you were seriously attempting to understand what I was saying in the first place.
Hint–this isn’t about either political party, and if my argument had to be placed in one of the two, which do you think it would be (I’ve argued for spending the same or less on the education budget while eliminating wasteful spending and honoring contracts to those people who actually impact the quality of education. As one reason for this, I pointed out studies that connect quality schools to home prices, effectively arguing that doing so allows you to keep more of you money on at least two economic fronts–but you just go right ahead and assume that I’m a liberal because I support strong public education)?
former teacher says
Just one comment-teachers are taxpayers too.
B says
Teachers are taxpayers, but they don’t add to the tax base
parent/taxpayer says
When the quality of their efforts lead to a school system the is desirable to prospective home buyers (and the businesses that follow to meet the needs of a larger or more affluent population) leading to new home starts and increased property values that adds to the tax base.
The Money Tree says
There’s no evidence; in fact quite the contrary that Harford County is receiving less education than surrounding counties and that somehow that fallacy is based upon lower pay scales. Harford County scores are at or above the mean…of course there are some that do better than others but that’s so obviously more about the parents and community than the teachers. A 50K a year teacher makes $38/hour based upon hours per day and year as outlined in the contract. A 72K per year teacher rakes in a cool $54/hour…of course those numbers don’t include extra pay for extracurricular activity and benefits. Teacher know coming into the profession that the hours are less; much less given the lack of summer work so why would someone think they deserve to be paid a comparable rate to those working the entire year?
Tired says
And the fella fixin your farm tractor makes $60 per hour!
The Money Tree says
And the fella fixing the farm tractor isn’t getting an automatic pension, nor laying around the pool from late May thru September, nor is he paid for the down time from one job to the next so that $60/hour is a free market rate – particularly given you can call the other shop to verify if the other guy might not do that same job in less time and with more quality for say…$58/hour. Wanna tell me how in any way, shape or form that compares to a teacher’s salary?
The Money Tree says
In addition tired…most farmers fix their own darn tractors, and boilers, and electric and plumbing and that’s not to mention plows, mowers or pumps. Teachers will never know anything close to the myriad of abilities required, tireless hours or risk that a typical farmer take on year in and year out. While you’re laying around the pool in July, the farmer is making sure the animals are fed, etc. Ever been in a barn in July…hotter than blazes and smells like urine and manure and yet teachers whine about the air conditioning. Give me a break.
Sick of The Money Tree Again says
Welcome back to this year’s edition of “Why I Hate Teachers” by The Money Tree!
Here we go! Of course everyone already knew that teachers lounge poolside from “late May thru September!” There’s probably a secret HCPS teachers-only swim club on the roof of the Roberty bldg, and teachers just *pretend* to go to work 2/3 of June and all of September!
And don’t forget this gem: “Teachers will never know anything close to the myriad of abilities required, tireless hours or risk that a typical farmer take on year in and year out.” No logical reasoning required, folks! Just create any ol’ argument, as long as you get real fired up! Teachers vs. farmers! Urine vs. manure! Hotter than blazes vs. freezin’ my buns off! Choose a side and fight, fight, fight!
Why am I reading this instead of going to bed????? Not again…
Funny that, while reading, I also thought of a friend who chose farming; yes, spring, summer, and fall are his seasons of hard work, but winters in Australia are his well-deserved escape!
BelairBob says
And parent/taxpayer just explains to the class why walmart wants to move closer to Bel Air….
‘When the quality of their efforts lead to a school system the is desirable to prospective home buyers (and the businesses that follow to meet the needs of a larger or more affluent population”
It’s all because of the teachers…..
game set match….
The Money Tree says
And Bob once again declares himself the winner.
Steve Jacobs says
Everyone has choices, I sent my son to private school for a better education.
And not the local catholic school……..
Goprliars says
And everyone has that choice? Get a grip on reality you racist, tea party jackasses that know nothing about what goes into making good top notch schools.
Steve Jacobs says
I would consider Gilman & McDonogh as top notch schools. Nothing like that in Harford County.
CDEV says
Yes and neither of those schools fund the vast costs for students with special needs and tution far exceeds the per pupil cost of HCPS!!! In fact double!!!!!
Steve Jacobs says
There again choices. It’s difficult not to judge a parent who drops their kids off at public school in a BMW, Mercedes or Escalade.
It’s all about priorities. I sacrifice a hell of a lot to educate my child, do you?
CDev says
Yes and all the kids that few could educate and the ones some shouldn’t believe should be educated.
LOL says
Another 50K well spent to send your kid to college with all the public school kids.
K says
I’m curious, why are there so many missed days of school due to teacher in-service sessions? I don’t see this benefit in the private sector. Vacation time for teachers appears far superior to those in the non public realm. All these benefits add up making the education profession enticing. Those that seek greener pastures in the private sector are more than welcome to dive right in!
I Left says
In-service days aren’t vacation days (not sure if you were saying that or not, but I wanted to be clear). The kids aren’t there, but the teachers are, and unless things have changed drastically since I left, teachers usually hate those days as well (they are all too often a waste of time when teachers already have plenty of real work to do).
As to the “vacation” time, sometimes it’s a perk, but not as much as you would think. As many have noted, the summer isn’t “vacation” since it isn’t paid. It’s also usually packed with everything from part-time jobs to taking required graduate coursework to maintain their certification. Honestly, the main benefit to the teaching schedule over the private sector (for me at least) was that I never had to jockey for time off at Christmas (which also had an added detriment, as I was always the one who had to travel for Christmas, as my mother and brother only had a day or two).
As I said in my previous post–I DID find greener pastures in the private sector. So have many of my friends and former colleagues. I would turn the question around a bit, K. If the education profession seems so “enticing” with its bait and switch salary schedule, public and professional disrespect, and ever-increasing workload, why have you never considered diving right in to that? There are plenty of alternative certification pathways. I’m not trying to be snarky–I’m honestly curious. SO many people like to bash teachers by saying that teaching is easy/has lots of perks/etc and the private sector is so much more difficult. Why is it that none of them ever abandon the rigors of the private sector for the supposed cushy field of the teaching profession?
K says
Nobody has been bashing teachers. They come in all forms. Whether it’s a mom staying home with her kids, teaching them all that’s good and right. Or a garbage man that spends time educating his clients about the importance of proper waste disposal. Maybe it’s an economist discussing the Laffer Curve or fundamentals of banking with a group of youngsters. The problem is taxpayers are tapped out. We have nothing left to give. We are working one, two, three jobs. Teachers, like everyone else in this country have options. No amount of money is ever enough. I don’t know of any other profession when you want to take a day or two or three off, you can call a system and have a substitute show up. It’s the woe is me mantra that bugs the heck out of those that every day go to work and also feel underpaid, unappreciated, and put upon. I gotta tell you I Left, your rhetoric has an essence of Eau De Liberal and a scent of My Union Oh My Union Parfum. Everybody is so darned concerned about the kids, how about the massive way beyond $16,000,000,000,000.00 debt that’s extinguished any future for our oh so brilliantly educated progeny?
I Left says
Nicely dodged, K. Unfortunately, we were not discussing the abstract notion of “one who teaches others”–a role that I agree, everyone plays. We were discussing the very real profession of public school teacher–a profession that you have portrayed as easy and highly beneficial (with more perks, in your view, than you and I receive in the private sector). So I ask again, if teaching is that wonderful with so many perks, why have you not jumped at that opportunity? Do please try to answer the actual question this time.
As to the rest of your thoughts, it’s swing and a miss again, unfortunately. I was in HCPS for four years–I was never a member of the union. If I were still there right now, however, I would be seriously considering it due to the current hostile climate. My rhetoric, as I explained in an earlier post, is the furthest thing from Liberal. My argument is that the citizens need to step up and claim their due authority to prevent the continued wasteful spending at the upper levels of this county. Power with the citizens? Arguing that the education budget should be kept the same (if not cut)? Focusing money on where it’s needed (honoring contracts for those who actually work with the students) as opposed to “pork” (the multitude of six-figure do-nothing positions in central admin)? In what world are these views Liberal?
Goprliars says
Again and again these dipshits in harford county think they know what’s best for public education and the masses of students that walk through our doors. I probably spend more time with your kids than you do. Get clue knuckleheads.
Kharn says
I sincerely hope you do not teach at the school my kids attend.
MAKE Education a Priority says
Everyone loves to talk about ( what we all KNOW is true) how education is our single most important investment for the future! Everyone likes to complain about the terrible teachers and how greedy they are- but on the other hand, they claim to want the very best education for their children. As I parent I do. My husband and I are also struggling like the rest of the world- and paying taxes too- but if you ask me what is the one thing our family values more than any other priority and that is the education of our children- something I’m willing to invest in.
I couldn’t agree more with “I Left” regarding the points in this letter.
Just remember Harford County- you get what you pay for. And yes- NOW is the time to cut the pork and make some changes and start spending the money on truly improving education- or you can just keep complaining on here about the state of things.
Steve Jacobs says
….invest in non-religioous private schools, best thing you can do for your children.
patron says
Why don’t you like religion ?
parent/taxpayer says
What about the very good religion affiliated schools like Loyola, Calvert Hall and John Carroll? Are you suggesting that those students are not receiving a quality education?
hot debate what do you think says
When they stop giving kids one day off every 2 week’s ill get serious about it.
All conservatives aren't angry, greedy anarchists says
@Laura – Education is an investment in our country and the future. You do get what you pay for. However, budgeting more doesn’t necessarily produce a better quality outcome. However, treating employees poorly and cheaply usually doesn’t produce high quality outcomes either. The key is an integrated and balanced approach. Employees deserve a cost of living adjustment and the taxpayer deserve an return on their investment. As a supporter of much more effective and preferably smaller government, I believe that the people of this county deserve to reap what they sow. There are times when you just can’t change something no matter how hard you try. You just have to let it destroy itself no matter what pain will be felt. The voters of Harford County need to decide for themselves and live with the consequences. I encourage you to leave this county behind and find citizens and an employer that better appreciate your contributions and talents. Also, why you would ever post on this forum is beyond me. We laughingly call it chumming for trolls, and you managed to hook your fair share. I wish you the best of luck!
Terpfan says
Laura and readers,
I am totally agreeing with you about the backward slide of our paychecks. I am currently bringing home $350 less per month than I did in 2009. That is a very sizable chunk that my sons, their significant others, or my late husband ever saw. In fact their paychecks either stayed the same or slightly increased during the same period. We saw increase in our health care plus increase in our prescription and doctor visit fees which was not mentioned or very quietly mentioned. That is neither here nor there at this point, as I am grateful for the good insurance.
I am also very disgusted by the witchhunt on wonderful teachers as written about in a previous issue. I have seen this happen at a local high school to two particularly outstanding teachers. These men forgot more about their subject matter and teacher than those observing them ever knew. The students who past through those two classrooms that I knew of constantly and continually refer back to what they learned and mention those men and are amazed that the depth of what they know and are prepared for in college, even if they did not take an AP class. In my case, my father – in -law was complaining to my family about the lack of preparation and knowledge of the Midshipmen in his basic Electrical Engineering class. He wrote down a couple problems and handed them to my sons. One was a graduate and one was in the physics class at the time. Both of my sons did the problem within 3-4 minutes and correctly which stunned their grandfather because not one of the Mids could do it. So, he sent us the mid-term for his class and both of my sons passed the physics part of it with a 90 or above and neither went into Engineering nor had the desire. All their knowledge came for this man who was forced out because he probably did not follow the “newly reinvented wheel” that just came down from Hickory Ave. because he was more interested in passing the his extensive knowledge of the course matter to the students in front of him.
Also… if you have not attended a high graduation in the past four years, the faculty has now been asked to dress in their regalia and stoles ( college robes and stoles showing their degrees) and process in with the graduating class. Those robes are not cheap and someone , somewhere is picking up the cost of them, because the teachers are not. I have had the privilege of attending Bel Air, Aberdeen, C. Milton Wright and Fallston’s graduations in the past two years. What I found so interesting is that the first three high schools followed the order that came down from Hickory Ave. to the letter and held formal graduations with their teachers dress as asked; whereas the fourth school did not. Isn’t that where the principal came in from Baltimore Co. and is a friend of….?? Now I am NOT saying that there was anything wrong with Fallston’s graduation. There wasn’t and in fact it was very, very nice and enjoyable.
Having been in the field of education since 1974 and working in three counties since that year, I have never worked in a situation where the moral has been so low among the staff and you hear many counting the time to they can leave or how physically ill with ulcers and anxiety due to the atmosphere. Is that what you want for your teachers of your children? There was a time when everyone looked forward to coming in to our classrooms each day and working with your children.
Shameful says
What’s wrong with people trying to advocate for themselves? So many people are critical about her comments because they are in the same boat. You have the right to speak up in a public forum too. Don’t knock someone down just because they are want to have a better living. At least she is doing something to better her situation.
K says
Based on the emotional responses to this article, I’d say the students that attend any public school within Harford County are totally screwed. We have a majority of teachers that are disgruntled due to their low pay. The administration is a bunch of tyrannical misers. The taxpayers are getting a whole lot of nothing. I’m so sorry that my kids are engaged in an us versus them arena each day they set foot in a HCPS facility. So, so very pathetic……
parent/taxpayer says
As some have recommended there is the private school option.
Also a teacher says
Dear K
You ALMOST have it right- save one important distinction- your children will likely continue to receive a first rate education delivered by HCPS professionals and never even know that there is such discontent or struggle in the trenches. Also I think it’s wrong to characterize the administrators as being at fault here. Most are only following orders from higher up much to their dissatifaction.
For now…the mid- career folks like Laura continue to teach in excellent fashion in the classroom and write letters in a last ditch grassroots effort to garner the only support for education possible in Harford County anymore- writing letters to the newspaper or BOE to raise awareness of what is going on. And then to get persecuted for raising awareness and simply asking that your contract be honored!!!
It’s only a matter of time if we continue on this track, however, before the education of students is placed in the hands of those who are left when THOSE folks retire, and if you want to continue to see excellent results in five, ten, fifteen years then someone better make education a priority in this county again and start recruiting and RETAINING the excellent young teachers. There are FIVE young teachers who were all outstanding who left my school for other states and counties just last year. Talk of more from the good, young ones on the job search for next year. When you are so low on the pay scale in the state by comparison and word gets out about the professional discontent and false advertising, the ones who don’t have roots will leave or not bother to come here to begin with, so eventually you will be correct in your conclusions about how if affects the students- just not yet, and not with certainty thank goodness- but something’s gotta give!
Money says
Got news for you, WE ARE ALL TAKING HOME LESS PAY! It’s called Maryland, the highest taxed state in the country especially when you add in fees, tolls and fines. Thats why the smart people get the heck out of here when they retire. That’s what we are doing in two years.
CDEV says
Where do you get that figure from???? According to this Maryland is not in the top 10
http://www.taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/BP65_2010_Burdens_Report.pdf
In fact MD is about 13 but compared to the US average we are in the general ballpark and the taxes are lower than they used to be when you consider inflation. Our 1% sales tax increase was the first increase in over 20 years. Tolls just went up for the first time in a while too!
Money says
Well you enjoy being a cheerleader for the great tax state of MD. Like I said, we are out of here in a couple of years and heading to a state that is #44-48 depending on what site you look at. Most of my money will be in my pocket in my retirement years. As more and more illegals flood into MD, you will be paying more and more taxes. Want to see MD in the future, look at CA. Have fun bud.
Luther Lingus says
Laura,
Be thankful you even have a job. I have a news flash for you, everyone is bringing home less money under President O’Dumbo & Governor OWE Malley. Although that shouldn’t come as any surprise to you if you weren’t a lock-step Democrat. Let me ask you this, how many millions of dollars does the Teachers Union dump into the campains of Democrats?
The agenda of the Teachers Unions are simple, their answer to everything is hire more teachers. In theory it sounds like a excellent idea on the surface but the real agenda is to get more teachers in the ranks to keep the hundreds of millions of dollars in union dues flowing.
The average citizen has become wise to the game that is played with our tax dollars. The Teachers Unions pump millions of dollars into campaigns of Democrats. In return, the Democrats spend billions of our tax dollars on the education system.
Your unions are against charter schools only because the are not unionized. Your unions are against merit pay, you want teachers paid based on tenure not talet. This is a concept that would NEVER fly in the private sector.
Maryland spent 16.6 billion dollars on Education in 2013 and guess where the bulk of that money went? 11.6 billion of that money went to pensions and health benifits for teachers……. a whopping 57%. The remaining 43% went for construction and operations, etc.
I ask you one simple quesition, how many of those teachers are actually working a part-time or second job and still drawing a pension? If you want to know why you are making less money, look in the mirror and look at your unions. Be thankful you even get a pension and health benefits we, the average citizen whom actually pays your salary do not.
CDEV says
Many teachers would prefer to opt out of the Maryland retirement system and privately invest the 5% they put in plus the 2% that goes to the general fund. They would get a better return on their money than they get now. Maryland has one of the worst pensions for teachers.
Luther Lingus says
Who cares about worst……….. worst is your opinion!
Where can one go and even get a pension? The point is that they get a pension. Like many things of the past the pensions are unsustainable. Why do you think that many companies with unions go out of business or move business out of the United States or right to work states? The only people dumb enough to offer them are the State and Federal agencies because they DON’T PAY FOR THEM – WE DO!
Let us try a simple math equation:
Teacher or Union employee is hired at say 24 years old, with 30 years of service they can retire at 54 years old with a full pension. A small part of their pension is funded by themselves but typically it is 5-7%. The average teacher salary in Maryland is $54K. So for 30 years of service a teacher in Maryland would receive $2,454 per month.
The 7% that the teacher contributes from their own salary based on $54K per year would be $3,780 per year or $315 per month. The total contribution (if salaries never changed would be $9,450 for 30 years of service). Based on the $2,454 per month payout a teacher would blow through the $9,450 they themselves contributed in less than four months of retirement.
Now let us consider that same teacher who retires at 54 lives to be 78 years old. For the additional 24 years of retirement, the State is on the hook for an additional $ 706,752 in pension benefits. If the teacher was taxed at 30% of their salary earning $54K per year they would pay $16,200 in taxes per year. Over the 30 years of service they would pay $486,000 in TOTAL taxes. Lets say that of that figure 15% is for State and local taxes would equal $72,900 for their contribution to the State and local tax over 30 years of service.
The teacher will only pay in $72,900 in taxes to the State and county but the State (or us the tax payer) will be on the hook for a total of $ 706,752 in pension benefits should the teacher live to be 78 years old. Keep in mind this is for one teacher.
Another thing to consider is that the average teacher salary in Maryland has increased 39.2% in the last 10 years. I doubt many of you have received a 40% increase in your salary in th last 10 years nor have the pension and benfits packages that have been awarded to our teachers.
So forgive me if I don’t feel sorry for these people consider I am paying them and they still arn’t happy with what they receive from me.
Steve Jacobs says
Luther, nice explanation. You might have stumped them on the easy math part though……
Luther Lingus says
I did make an error on the math – mind was going faster than fingers.
For 30 years of service, a teacher would pay in $315 per month or $113,400 total contribution towards their pension – not $9,450. They would also blow through it in 46 months not 4 months.
I would speculate that teachers live far mare than 4 years past retirement age. So for 30 years of service and 24 years of retirement they would still have only contributed:
115k their 7% +
72K taxes local and state =
$ 187k total contribution.
Tax payers would still be on the hook for $550k per teacher
in this example.
my apology.
So my revised number would be $
Luther Lingus says
a net loss of $550k per teacher.
damn enter key.
Steve Jacobs says
Dammit Luther, did you go to public school?
Luther Lingus says
@ Steve Jacobs
You want a number to chew on?
There are roughly 59K teachers in Maryland. Lets say that ONLY HALF of them fall into my example.
29,500 teachers x $550,000 pension dollars contributed by State over and above employee taxes and contribution.
$ 16,225,000,000 obligation of State of Maryland to 29,500 teachers retiring at 54 with 30 years of service who live to 78 years old.
G says
Hey Luther….ever hear of compounding interest?
Also, teachers who retire prior to age 62 don’t receive the full pension amount even if they have 30 years of service. Look it up on the State Retirement System of Maryland website.
Sounds like you think teachers really have it made. Maybe you should have been a teacher so you could ride the gravy train too!
Luther Lingus says
Read it yourself –
http://www.sra.state.md.us/Participants/Members/Downloads/Worksheets/Worksheet-EmployeeTeacher-Pension-Contributory.pdf
“eligibility requirements for normal retirement are:”
– “at least 30 years of eligibility service; or”
– “age 62 with at least 5 years of eligibility service, age 63 with 4 years, age 64 with
3 years, age 65 or older with 2 years”.
Who hasn’t heard of compound interest? So what you are saying is that compound interest on 30 years of service for somoene who pays $315 per month is more than 24 years of benefits paid out at $ 2,450 per month?
What kind of rates are you getting on your money? No one on this planet are getting returns that great.
I don’t need the gravy train or your tax money, I make my own.
Sounds like you should have spent more time in schools if you cannot comprehend this.
G says
You’re right, Luther. Because “no one on this planet are getting returns that great”, we should completely disregard compounding interest from the equation. I don’t know a single financial planner or adviser or actuary who does so when considering retirement planning for clients, but no matter. We’ll disregard it for the sake of calculating teacher pensions.
Good to know that you make your own money and don’t need to ride the gravy train of teaching. It’s just that you seem so adamant about proving how easy and lucrative a career in teaching is. You’re not alone…a lot of people on this thread seem to think that. If that’s the case, I don’t understand why they didn’t pursue a career in education.
The Money Tree says
Compounded interest assumes there’s actually money sitting somewhere compounding interest – given we know that pension money isn’t sitting anywhere gaining dividends or interest but rather is being used on the day to day overspending statewide means what’s actually compounding is taxpayer costs.
ALEX R says
Well, I’m not sure if you have ever considered the difference between the requirements for getting thru engineering school or being a math or physics major, etc., vs. being an education major. Maybe the clue is in there.
I Left says
Two things, Alex. First, you do realize that some teachers WERE math and physics majors, right? Content teachers have to double major, completing all of the requirements for their content field AND the education stuff. Second, I doubt you’ll find too many teachers that will disagree with you about the relative ease of the education major. Even among the profession, education classes are viewed as something of a joke. Education classes are easy. Teaching is not. Not enough people make that distinction (in or out of the profession). That’s part of the reason you see huge numbers of people earning education degrees but leaving the profession within a year or two.
G says
Luther…I think you missed this clause:
http://www.sra.state.md.us/Participants/Members/Downloads/Handbooks/BenefitHandbook-Emp-Pen.pdf
FORMULA—The calculation of an early service retirement benefit uses the service
retirement formula, but the benefit is reduced for the period of time between a
member’s retirement date and his or her 62nd birthday. The benefit is reduced by
.005 (one-half of one percent) for each month, or 6% for each year, that payment
begins prior to a member’s 62nd birthday. The maximum reduction is 42%.
Luther Lingus says
You want to include compound interest!
Teacher contribution $315 per month = $ 3,780 per year.
Compound Interest at 3% yield over 30 years = $ 71,830
(From the teacher) With a $113K contribution over 30 years
+ $ 71,830 in compound interest
+ $ 72,000 in total state and local taxes (assuming it all goes for this)
= $ 256,830 total contribution by teacher.
(From the State) $ 706,752 pension paid for 24 years of retirement.
$ 706,752 total cost to State of Maryland
– $ 256,830.00 total contribution by teacher (assuming all taxes paid both local and state went to their pension only).
= $ 449,922 cost to State per employee.
Any way you slice this, it is still a $450K benefit. I would assume
closer to $500K per teacher considering interest on the funds if we didn’t have to pay them and considering all taxes paid by employee do not contribute all taxes to their own pension funds.
It is tantamount to handing out $450K upon retirement per teacher.
I would rather pay teachers more money per year – closer to $100K and dump the pension plan completely.
Steve Jacobs says
That’s a great idea! Unfortunately probably most of them would not save for retirement. But, hey…..we wouldn’t have a shortage of teachers!
G says
I don’t mean to split hairs with you, but a $3780 annual contribution, earning 3% over 30 years is $185,230.12.
http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm
Also, teachers contribute 7% to the retirement system; for most teachers, the contribution will be greater than $3780.
Assuming a 3% return in my opinion, is quite conservative. This may have been the case over the past few years, but average market returns over any 30 year period since the great depression has been greater than 3%.
G says
Also, consider that when a teacher retires, all the money they put in and that has compounded over 30 years is not immediately paid out. So even as the retiree draws a monthly payment, the remaining money continues to earn and compound interest.
So we would have to consider that a lot of the money paid out to teachers upon retirement comes from their own contributions and compounding interest. It doesn’t all come from tax dollars.
G says
And, the money a teacher receives from their pension is subject to state tax, so some of the money goes back to the state.
CDev says
Luther you fail to realize the state pickup portion of the income taxes teachers pay. Additionally teachers do not get near the benifit you suggest for what they put in and if the state stopped borrowing money to pay for other things.
An Independent's View says
Reasonable people of this county want a nice place to live with all the services included and are willing to pay taxes to support that standard of living. However, we do demand demonstrated efficiency and value for our investment. Mismanagement and waste aren’t acceptable and shoudn’t be tolerated. Unfortunately, many of the people who post here aren’t representative of most residents of this county. In fact, most of what I see here are the same Dagger ID’s posting the same tired ideological rhetoric that they posted the same time during the last budget cycle. It would not matter to them if teachers hadn’t had a raise in 10 years. They don’t support paying taxes in general and certainly not for services that they personally feel are overvalued or not very essential. However, when it comes to a service that even one of them finds important, you bet he and/or she will be spouting a tune sounding more like the lyrics from a far left liberal. Of course, I respect and support their constitutional right to do so. Believe it or not, sometimes the good of country or in this case the county, should outweigh the selfish desires of loud individuals.
The Money Tree says
Fact is teachers have had a raise and do get better benefits overall than just about anybody else so just because you’ve fallen hook, line and sinker for tired and predictable fallacies doesn’t mean the rest of us should be so naive. Maybe some of us can do that math…can figure out that the country is sinking under the weight of a system for public employees at the federal, state and county levels that isn’t sustainable. Most of us support raises if those raises are tied to performance. I certainly recognize that some teachers are worth more than others – some work harder, are more talented and better able to communicate. You don’t incent excellence by holding those people back and treating them like everyone else – eventually they won’t go the extra mile because they’ll lose the sense of initiative only found in reward pay systems.
B says
So your version of “for the good of the country” is to continue spending more on teachers salaries when the state contribution and tax revenues from decreasing property values are both going down? Doesn’t sound very independent.
And you clearly don’t understand the values of the right. Most conservatives believe it is their duty as a citizen to pay their taxes. It is also our duty as citizens to check the out of control spending that endangers all of us.
An Independent's View says
@Money Tree – like I said, “the same Dagger ID’s posting the same tired ideological rhetoric that they posted the same time during the last budget cycle. ” Thank you for not disappointing me.
The Money Tree says
Like they say….you can’t handle the truth.
Jack says
This is indeed old news. Why are people not commenting on the candidacy of the superintendent for another contract!?
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