The following editorial and letter to the Harford County Department of Planning and Zoning were written and provided by Bill Wehland of Bel Air:
Recently the traffic company representing the proposed new Bel Air Walmart responded to the latest Harford County deficiencies of June 7, 2013. This group has again failed to comply with the county’s request for traffic mitigation plans at key intersections. Instead they continue to ask that the county approve the site plan and than they will comply and provide the intersection mitigation drawings.
If this group were capable of providing acceptable mitigation plans one would think they would have already supplied them as requested. It is becoming increasingly apparent that traffic mitigation at the intersections of Routes 924 & 24 with Plumtree Road, Bel Air South Parkway, Wheel Road, Bright Oaks Road, Patterson Mill Road and the proposed Blue Spruce Road is not feasible or possible without compromising the safety of the public and the roadways.
I still believe it is essential that the Planning and Zoning Department with State Highway Administration and Public Works Assistance examine the big picture of how all the proposed projects in the area converge and than determine the overall impact to traffic congestion and the safety of the public. The current system of reviewing and improving development projects in sequential and isolated steps fail to take a comprehensive view of the increased traffic generated by all the proposed developments. The reality is that one project will not have much of an effect but when added together with a proposed Walmart Supercenter in the midst of other proposed projects in an already congested area, a traffic nightmare is inevitable.
I believe the recent amendment passed by the County Council to create a Maryland Route 924 corridor plan focused on land use, transportation connectivity, and quality of life along the MD 924 corridor from Lake Drive to Porter Lane is one step in the right direction. Secondly, the current grading system to determine whether an intersection passes or fails is antiquated and should not be used as the sole criteria whether new development can be approved in a congested area.
It is my belief there are two possibilities to stop the proposed Walmart project:
(1) Walmart is unable to meet the P & Z /SHA requirements for traffic mitigation and site plan is not approved.
(2) Walmart decides to abandon the project at this location.
It is my hope both will happen.
Bill Wehland
August 23, 2013
Mr. Alex Rawls
Harford County
220 S. Main Street
Bel Air, Maryland 21014Subject: Walmart Bel Air Traffic Study
Reference: (a) Traffic Group Letter dated August 14, 2013 to Alex Rawls
(b) SHA Letter dated August 12, 2013 to William Wehland
(c) Wehland letter to Alex Rawls dated May 8, 2013Dear Mr. Rawls:
I noted from the Harford County web-site that The Traffic Group, representing the proposed Plumtree/924 Walmart location, responded again on August 14, 2013 to the Harford County comments from your department contained in your letter dated June 7, 2013.
Again, I do not believe they have satisfactorily complied with your request for detailed traffic mitigation plans at key intersections in this latest submittal. Some of their responses are no different than the unacceptable ones contained in their letter dated April 11, 2013 which I addressed in my letter to you on May 8, 2013 and you addressed to them in your letter of June 7, 2013.
In response to four of your June 7, 2013 comments they state the following:
“It is understood that mitigation of failing intersections are necessary to satisfy Harford County APF. The mitigation for each of the required intersections will be outlined by Harford County with the Site Plan Approval letter. In order to address this comment, fully engineered intersection mitigation drawings will be necessary which are typically provided after Site Plan Approval. Please note that we have provided intersection conceptual plans that indicate the improvements are feasible.”This is an unacceptable response and believe you will agree. This is not a “typical” project based upon the controversial issues relative to traffic and safety and the amount of traffic that a Walmart will generate in this area. The Planning and Zoning Department (P & Z) has continually requested detailed mitigation plans and they continue to be non-compliant. If they were capable of providing acceptable mitigation plans they would have already submitted them. There is no logical reason for the P & Z or the SHA to accept the above statement or statements such as “This comment is informational and understood”. If they understood the comment they should be able and made to demonstrate how they will comply.
I received a letter dated August 12, 2013 from Mr. David Peake of the SHA responding to my letter to him on May 11, 2013. In this letter he indicates that the SHA is currently reviewing a revised TIS prepared by the developer’s team for the proposed Walmart. He states the reviews are an iterative process and there are usually several TIS submissions until the study appropriately defines the traffic impacts. Additionally, he states the study must also identify potential roadway improvements required to mitigate the development-generated traffic impacts. In his letter he expects to complete the review and provide comments to the county by the end of August. Apparently the SHA comments to the earlier Walmart revision in April must still be submitted to P & Z for your submittal to The Traffic Group representing Walmart. Is this true?
I still believe it is imperative that the Planning and Zoning Department with State Highway Administration and Public Works assistance examine the big picture of how all the various projects converge and what the real impact will be to traffic and safety. The current system of reviewing and approving development projects in purely sequential and isolated steps fail to take a comprehensive view of the increased traffic created by all the proposed developments within a one mile radius. Based upon the recent approval of the Med Star and assuming Med Star has accepted your conditional approval, I believe Walmart must now include the Med Star generated traffic into any further TIS submittals. Furthermore, an amendment was recently passed by the County Council to create a Maryland Route 924 corridor plan focused on the land use transportation, connectivity, and quality of life along the MD 924 corridor from Lake Drive to Porter Lane.
It is becoming increasingly apparent that traffic mitigation at Routes 924 and 24 with Plumtree Road, Bel Air South Parkway, Wheel Road and Patterson Mill is not feasible or possible without compromising the safety of the public and the roadways.
It is time for P & Z to tell Walmart their site plan will be disapproved for any further non compliance, and the unsatisfactory and vague responses being provided.
I would appreciate receiving a copy of your reply to the August 14, 2013 letter submitted by The Traffic Group.
Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
William Wehland
Cc Mr. David Peake, SHA Metropolitan District Engineer, Baltimore and Harford Counties
Mr. Steve Foster, State Highway Administration, Access Management Division
Mr. Pete Gutwald, Director of Planning and Zoning
Mr. Shane Grimm, Chief Board of Appeals and Site Plan Review
Since the county handed over the area to the development envelope years ago it seems a lot of political grandstanding now is taking place to curry favor with the agitated locals. Maybe there are valid concerns on both sides – “locals” concerned about their perceived quality of life and business concerned about pursuing gain in a “free” market economy. I for one intend to try to live life no matter what the outcome. If no Walmart in Bel Air, I will pray they cut the prices and improve the selection of goods at the under par Fallston Walmart. If Bel Air Walmart comes, I will try to drive safely and observe all traffic control devices that will be put in place.
Hey “Whining Wehland”, what you believe, and what the facts are, appear to be at opposing positions. Here’s to facts & law trumping opinions and bias (every time!).
“The reality is that one project will not have much of an effect but when added together with a proposed Walmart Supercenter in the midst of other proposed projects in an already congested area, a traffic nightmare is inevitable.”
But that is not how the planning process works. You cannot predict traffic or force a developer to plan a project based upon hypothetical situations or the possible impact of other future private ventures, because those projects may never come to fruition or may radically change during the planning process.
“The current system of reviewing and approving development projects in purely sequential and isolated steps fail to take a comprehensive view of the increased traffic created by all the proposed developments within a one mile radius.”
Too bad. The current system works because it provides fairness for developers, they do not have to chase each others projects or try to predict how a competitor will proceed (or share non-public information with a competitor), and it gives the SHA clear guidance on how to evaluate each proposal without having to take an interest balancing approach or mediate disputes between parties.
“It is time for P & Z to tell Walmart their site plan will be disapproved for any further non compliance, and the unsatisfactory and vague responses being provided.”
Unfortunately for your request, that is how the game works. The developer submits the cheapest plan they believe possible to achieve the required permits, if the information is insufficient, they revise it and try again until something gets approved. A denial is extremely rare when the developer is actively participating and making changes in response to official responses. The government can’t require exceptional performance from an applicant, a hole-in-one response to all critical comments (and no generation of new comments) is an extremely rare occurence on such a large project so another iteration of the submittal, review, revise process begins.
If you do not like the idea of living in the vicinity of a Walmart, you should put your house for sale now and move to Whiteford.
I concede your points regarding the process here.
The problem, I contend, is that the process is a little too “fair” to developers. The process needs to be changed. Sure, there are core parts that can remain the same, but there are definitely some ways to enhance it, and give us something closer to smart growth in Harford.
Mr. Wehland has hit on a couple of those points. The general point is that the people of Harford are paying the price for this process, and in many ways it works against us rather than for us. Some things need to change.
Right now, we’re not getting it.
The process is working as intended.
The community was asleep at the wheel when it was their turn, and now its the developer’s turn.
We would not be having this discussion if it was a Cabelas or Nieman Marcus.
That’s where we diverge. I agree that the process is working “as intended”, and I absolutely agree that people were asleep and uninterested during the re-zoning process.
But the process needs to be fixed. It doesn’t work for the people like it should, and there are some things we can fix to make it work better.
Like what? A mulligan if an unpopular developer buys the land after rezoning?
No, like changing the APF, as suggested by Mr. Wehland, so that code does not permit building all around what are essentially already failing traffic intersections. “D” is not a passing or acceptable grade. Like improving the process so that the public is more aware of zoning and development before it gets started. Like improving the usefulness and effectiveness of the required Community Input Meetings so that they are more than dog and pony shows.
There’s a lot we can do, if we care.
It’s no secret I’m not in favor of Walmart’s plan, but at the same there is a bigger issue here and Walmart is simply the largest red flag to wave to fix a broken process. When the parking lot at Plumtree is crammed, I will still be fussing about APF’s, and CIM’s, and DAC, etc.
“Fairness for developers” What about fairness for the voters who live in these area effected by the extra traffic Walmart will bring. Not to mention the empty Walmart that will be left standing in Abingdon. Except for a small minority who will benefit financially and in the process sell the rest of us out. Everyone I’ve spoken to regarding the Walmart at Plumtree thinks its a bad idea. Expand the one in Abingdon makes more sense. I’m sorry if you have to drive a mile farther for cheaper prices.
I’m also sorry you bought those large houses at the top of the bubble
The community had their chance to provide input during the rezoning process, now that the property is B3, there is nothing that can be done unless the community wants to pool their resources, buy the land out from under Walmart (which would take a gigantic sum of money) and leave it undeveloped or make it into a park.
The problem is that the community thought they had a shot at getting a Cabelas, Bass Pro or another high-end store so they fully supported the rezoning vs calling the owner’s bluff about him making it into Section 8 housing. Too bad no one read the fine print and realized the implications.
The owner is entitled to utilize their land to the fullest extent of the zoning regulations.
I don’t know what country you’ve been living in but the voters always have a say
🙂
@Tom –
Voters had their say.
They setup a zoning regimen and process that Walmart is following.
Voters don’t get to vote on Walmart.
They can comment, but there will be no referendum vote.
The voters did have a chance, at the rezoning hearing.
I agree! Voters drive the process, not corporations. “But corporations are people” says kharn.
????
@Notafake
Corporations are entities but they don’t get to vote.
They can act as an entity in public and private matters.
You could setup a Notafake LLC and if someone slipped on a wet floor in your Notafake Supercenter the person who fell could not successfully sue you but only Notafake LLC.
Now they could sue you Notafake as an individual if you pushed them.
Kharn&Common Sense: Again I ask the question what country are u living in? The voters can have a politician change the laws or they just won’t shop there. Considering who runs the state govmnt (OMalley and the Dems) and how they feel about Walmart in general. Anything could happen 😉
@Tom –
Okay go and vote the Walmart down.
Anxious to see how that works out for you.
@ Common Sense
I won’t be voting but the SHA and the O Malley administration will be “voting”. The bureaucratic process takes time, as I’m sure you know. Another thing, of which you are intentionally missing. I don’t want to “vote Walmart down” I’m fine with Walmart, I occasionally shop there. What I don’t want is it screwing up the traffic on 924 and 24 and leaving a large empty building at Abingdon
@Tom –
You don’t have a choice if Walmart wants to close a location end of story.
Walmart has to conform with the planning and zoning, again you don’t have a choice.
Let us know where you have a choice with regard to Walmart?
Common Sense
I stated that I won’t be the one voting. You didn’t address my comment re the SHA and the OMalley admin? Why is that? SHA can delay it and the Governor and State Assembly can certainly muck with it. Is Walmart going to sue the state of Maryland if it doesn’t get its way? The investor aren’t going to like that
@Tom and The Money Tree –
Countering people with whom you disagree with weak emotional responses is a losing strategy.
P.S. To the Fake The Money Tree it doesn’t help to steal the real The Money Tree’s alias.
@Common Sense
“Are you brain damaged?” was the lead in for one of ur comments to me. I naturally assumed it referred to me because @Tom preceded it. Now other business :” my question about how the SHA, The O’Malley administration and the Maryland state Assembly do not have a “vote” on what Walmart does or doesn’t do at Plumtree” I’ve asked you this question a couple times and u haven’t answered. Also If Walmart doesn’t get it way will it sue the state of Maryland? Pls enlighten us
@Tom –
After reading your posts It was a fair question. And it was a question?
@Common Sense AKA Pompous Ass
Lol Now answer my question
@Kharn&Common Sense PS Just because its legal and you can do something doesn’t mean you should do it or that it right. However, I’m sure that concept escapes both of you
@Tom –
Are you brain damaged?
Walmart does things in their interest and in the interest of their shareholders.
There will be some people in Harford County who’s interests intersect with those of Walmart’s and some that don’t.
Walmart has nothing to gain by appeasing the anti-Walmart people.
They are in it for the money and God Bless them for that!
Of course Walmart is in it for the money…as evidenced by thier history of exploitation and abuse of thier own workers. Not so sure God is blessing Walmart. Just not sure more cheap crap from China is worth everyone in the area in and around Plumtree bending over and letting Walmart f them over including their workers. Just as we all recognize Walmart wants to make a profit you need to recognize citizens have a right to voice thier opinions and interfere in the process where they feel necessary. Capiche?
@The Money Tree
You don’t like Walmart.
However millions people do and Walmart has waiting lists for people who want to work there.
Seems to me the rights of citizens to voice their opinions and interfere in the process is quite safe and secure. Do you see any threats other than opposing views and facts?
@Common Sense
Thank you for confirming my comment and my opinion of you
Wow Tom is this all you have “Thank you for confirming my comment and my opinion of you”.
I’ll take it as a compliment, okay.
Could give two craps about the millions who may or may not like Walmart – really only the people of Harford County matter in this and if you polled the folks in the vicinity of this project you’d get a big fat bronx cheer for Walmart – that’s just how much they’re loved. Nobody wants Walmart next door for good reason – that location can’t support that hideous store and that’s all that matters. Walmart sucks for many other reasons beyond that location but in this instance that is a very good reason to interfere with this project.
@The Money Tree
Don’t get so worked up.
I know you want to trample on the commercial property rights of others, I get it.
I also get that people bought homes in an area where commercial projects could be developed and that’s happening and they don’t like it. Their cheese got moved.
You want to demonize Walmart because you don’t want it and that’s wrong.
They are a great company and we have all benefited from them whether you like them or not.
@Common Sense
That your an ass
Ok your welcome 🙂
@Tom
If you want to insult someone at least use proper grammar.
Your is possessive and you’re is the contraction of you are.
Try it again.
We can argue whether or not Walmart is a great company – there’s plenty of evidence they aren’t but that doesn’t matter here. As to your suggestion that there is even such a thing as an absolute commercial property right is so dumb I won’t even respond. They may have a right to build given a very long list of requirements and studies completed satisfactorily and then if somebody finds a little rare buttefly all bets are off. Shame the only rare thing left in Belair anymore is open space.
@The Money Tree
Here’s what you said – “As to your suggestion that there is even such a thing as an absolute commercial property right is so dumb I won’t even respond.”
Here’s what I said – “I know you want to trample on the commercial property rights of others, I get it.”
Enough said.
If they the project will not satisfy traffic study requirements then they have no right. Enough said.
“If they the project will not satisfy traffic study requirements then they have no right. Enough said.”
WTF?
@The Money Tree –
Walmart may or may not meet the requirements to build.
However your shouting down opposing views and demonizing the company is foolish and wrong.
Who is shouting down an opposing view? Shall I link you the story about Walmart and bribing Mexican officials; how about the endless number of stories regarding low wages and benefits…most Walmart workers still quality for food stamps because they’re paid so little. That’s not to mention the turnover there since the average length of Walmart employment is less than a year. Then there’s the secondary effects of producing cheap crap in China…losing american manufacturing, shuttering small businesses, opening and closing stores just to drive away competitors. The list of bad effects given the “walmart way” is very long and well documented – to think anything I say will suddenly “demonize” what’s already been demonized and proven fairly demonic in terms of retail by comparison doesn’t seem to make much sense.
I HATE CAPITALISM!
It’s just that simple.
enough said.
I really hate it when someone is so ignorant they hijack your name. I don’t hate capitalism moron. I like fair markets and a healthy economy as much as anybody.
I hate successful people and companies.
Enough said.
Everyone needs to do what I say when I say to do it.
I am the only person in the world that matters.
I am awesome and know everything
So all you walmart type people need to shut up.
Enough said.
@Common Sense
Now worries
You are a pompous ass
I added a adjective. Do you feel better?
Now answer my question about how the SHA, The O’Malley administration and the Maryland state Assembly DO NOT have a “vote” on what Walmart does or doesn’t at Plumtree
Sorry that’s “No worries”
Speak for yourself. You did not ask everyone, everyone I talk too loves the idea of a new bigger better Walmart.
I bet none of those people live near Bel Air South or in Constant Friendship. BTW very appropriate moniker
I know people in constant friendship who love the idea of a new Walmart!!!!!
@Cdev How do they feel about the empty one at Constant Friendship if the Bel Air one is built?
Walmart wanted to do that years ago. The county refused their request to have the property rezoned. The story was published in the papers. The ones who refused the request should be called on the carpet to explain why.
Kharn, you repeatedly say things like “If you do not like the idea of living in the vicinity of a Walmart, you should put your house for sale now and move to Whiteford.” I’m afraid it is not feasible for everyone who opposes Walmart to move. It is feasible for Walmart to not build at the Plumtree location. People who have lived as long as 50 years in these communities should not have to bear the burden of having their lives disrupted by a big box store that can easily remodel their existing store, build elsewhere or no where. There are two other Walmarts in such close proximity. This Plumtree location is unnecessary.
Bright oaks was developed in the 70’s and is not 50 years old.
And it is feasible for anyone to sell their house, lets face it you aren’t going to live forever and one day in the not to distant future someone else will be living in that house and you will be worm food.
As you know over the last “50” years bel air has changed and it will continue to change long after you are gone.
Deal with it.
I realize Bright Oaks was developed in the early 70’s and is over 40 years old now, however, there are other communities in close proximity that are older than that and original owners are still living in their homes. You’re right, Bel Air has changed over the years. We have well seen it, but that does not mean Walmart should be allowed to build this monstrous store and destroy what is left of our communities. I am dealing with it by getting involved in the civic community to fight this project and by voicing my opinions to the appropriate government officials and forums like this in a respectful manner. Bullies make rude comments trying to intimidate others into submission.
Concerned,
The development of a nearby property is a risk every homeowner takes when they move into an area, especially near major arteries.
Is there any truth to the speculation that Larry Flint’s Hustler Club may move into the Abingdon Walmart location?
Excellent idea! Unfortunately, I doubt that area is zoned for fun.
Walmart needs to get the hell out of Harford Co. I’m sick of these stores. I moved to Harford for a smaller community, and now its going to be the next “Towson” or worse Landsdown in a few years. These stores bring lower people income to the area with most of them brings crime. Just look at Fallston. The walmart there makes the police blotter almost EVERY SINGLE WEEK! this adds to the census statistics when people looks for homes the crime percentages are higher simply because of these stores. How come they don’t have a “PeopleOfTarget .com” ??? Walmart is for trash, and Harford Co is above this riffraff.
In case you haven’t noticed, there is a large low-income population in Harford County. There is no wall at I95, they’re allowed to drive the same roads, use the same shops, movie theaters, restaurants, etc, that you are, their kids even go to the same school as your kids. They’re people too, just because they’re down on their luck or might not be as fortunate as you doesn’t mean you can expect to be isolated from them 24×7.
Rising Sun might be more your style.
Thanks, Kharn. But remember, our Dem/Lib friends are very much in favor of helping those people that you mention but they want to take my money to do it and they sure as h**l don’t want them driving in to their neighborhood. Right, Fallston folks?
B..I.. N.G.O and bingo was his nameo!
I was completly against the fallston walmart. now the sky is all lit up and my telescope is collecting dust. as the East sky is just even more illuminated, Jones is bad enough..
We cannot expect them to “put up a wall” but as history has it crime breeds crime.
I am not “Well Off” I do, “ok” enough to get by, enough to ensure my kids earn their own way. But I am not privy to opening my wallet for others that do not try to do better.
They wont have to drive, MTA is on it’s way, bus stop on every corner. Then light rail is next.
It’s so rare, I have to give a nod when we agree.
Kharn
Suddenly your sticking up for the poor in Harford County? Whos the Lib/Dem now? Didn’t know you had it in you.
Your being disingenuous of course. If you did actually care about the poor you’d want expand the one in Constant Friendship. The buses stop there, its right off 95 so easy excess, target Sams Club are with in waling distance etc. You only care about your own interests. When Harford becomes overcrowded I bet your the one who moves to Cecil if your not already there
Are you already in Cecil? If you were a Harford resident, you would know it is a BJs in Constant Friendship and not a Sam’s Club. The 2 & 2A buses already stop at the Festival, so it would be a quick walk to the Walmart.
Just because I do not support my tax dollars being wantonly distributed does not mean I refuse to help the less fortunate on my own.
“The 2 & 2A buses already stop at the Festival, so it would be a quick walk to the Walmart.”
Not a safe one, though.
But seriously, it’s incredibly likely transit would add a stop at the Walmart shopping center also, so that’s not really going to be an issue.
Kharn
I’m sorry, you are clearly a great humanitarian. Your concern for the poor and the people in your community (Cecil county was it) is profound
Your comments are shamefull. You need to move back where you came from.
Thanks, Herr Hitler.
There is a third option and the best hope of those opposed to building the super walmart.
Petition the Haron Dahan foundation who owns the property to not sell to walmart and maybe instead donate it to the people of Harford county who made Hal the extremely rich man he became….. The foundation is already the 44th richest in the state does it really need this sale?
Hahahaha, Dahan donating anything to Harford county! Now that is comical. Harford county did indeed make him and his family very wealthy, but I can’t imagine the foundation donating back to the county. Walmart probably greased the palms of the Dahans’ in order to go there in the first place.
Wow Bill really? You expect an online petition to the owners to stop this and for them to give it to the citizens of Harford County? Prime development land in the center of the development envelope and you want to ask them to give it away?? Now that right there is a special kind of stupid request!! Here is a fact for you: THEY ARE GOING TO SELL IT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER!!! Now if all of you Bel Air South residents can come up with a better offer then Walmart then I’m sure that the Dahans wold happily let you all have it. So instead of an online petition I would start a fund raising drive, because that is the ONLY way all you poor, oppressed, down trodden Bel Air south residents are going to stop this.
That’s hat wrong with development. People should just not be able to legally sell their property to someone I don’t like.
It’s just not fair to me and I want it stopped and stopped now dammit.
Stop giving me thumbs down. I know it’s the top executives and the county employees they are paying off that keep doing ,so stop it right now.
Everyone give me a thumbs up just to show how much you agree with how much walmart sux.
Dammit…..
It is My Belief there are Two Possibilities to Stop the Proposed Wal-Mart Project. Slim and none.
Ok None then we’ll go with ur brother Slim
Go ninja go, go go go go ninja go, go ninja go, go go go
Wait until section 8 hits Fallston.
There are active rental properties on Pleasantville Rd just north of Fallston that fall under HUD’s payment standards.
Section 8 might already be driving into Fallston! Or shopping there! My god!
Section 8 is good, it brings everyone together.
I’ve written to the Harford County Chamber of Commerce regarding the issue of what kinds of road improvements it would like to see to make the county more business friendly, as well as what plans they have for wooing a business or businesses to take over what will be an abandoned Walmart at the gateway to Harford County.
The answers were lukewarm, most rhetorical devices, suggesting that the hope is that everything will just take care of itself and that businesses shouldn’t have to look after their own best interests.
Supplying the chambers actual response to your letter vs your opinion of their response would be more effective.
The Chamber’s letter to me was private and, therefore, not meant for public consumption. However, feel free to write to them for a public response. I did not, for I assumed that statements meant to be made public would be more lukewarm and non-committal, not less.
I sent them an email requesting they allow you to print the letter and a link to this article.
Anyone else interested here is the address:
http://www.harfordchamber.org/LearnMore/President.html
A bit passive aggressive, not to mention demonstrating a glaring lack of intellectual curiosity on your part.
I think you could request a copy of the response via the Maryland Public Information Act if you wanted it.
Alternatively, the public and Chamber members could hound the Chamber into making a public statement regarding the position of its members regarding traffic, public safety, and the marketing of abandoned properties as it concerns the Walmart issue. To date and to my knowledge, the Chamber has not issued a public proclamation. If it wanted to do so, I’m sure it would have done so by now.
Yes, it sent me an off the cuff response. It is unfair to the Chamber to hold it “word for word” accountable to it publicly. It is more fair to to allow them to issue a proper statement of position.
So, let’s all hound the Chamber of Commerce together. That’s how a community would do it.
Paul Mc
How could the PIA help? The chamber of commerce is a private organization!!!!
@Keith Gabel
Disgusted may or may not loathe his neighbors. He doesn’t agree much with you.
Now Alex R has pretty much called you a prevaricator on your pseudo confidential Walmart Chamber letter.
And I was never planning on meeting you since you have nothing to offer me.
You’re upset with me because I engage in thoughtful reasoned posting on topics I am knowledgeable about and whereas you do not.
@Common Sense –
Incorrect again. You annoy me because you talk beyond your level of comprehension. When asked questions, you keep avoiding them and talking nonsense until everyone else gives up. We had this exchange over the Amish market when you refused to answer another man’s question multiple times. All you could muster was to attempt to cast doubt on my correct answer, until you ran out of things to say.
The issue of this article is traffic mitigation. You argue that you are in favor of the rule of law and legal processes. Yet, you don’t support the idea that your neighbors are using this very rule of law to keep traffic flowing on 924 and 24. If that kills the Walmart deal, so be it. The more important issue is traffic congestion. So, if you are as well reasoned as you say you are, what specific issues do you have with traffic mitigation ideas put forth in the op-ed piece? Please enlighten the rest of us. We look forward to your wisdom regarding how you’d preserve traffic flow.
@Keith Gabel
It was established that you were wrong on the determination of federal vs state court venue on the Amish matter.
Walmart will have to comply with planning and zoning requirements.
@Common Sense –
So, you will agree with whatever the SHA decides upon and you support the right of the community to petition it on the matter of traffic flow?
@Keith Gabel
This is not a rezoning so the community has no vote.
Walmart must meet the requirements.
@Common Sense
Walmart must meet the requirements of the SHA process, of which the public is allowed to submit comments. So, we agree that Walmart must meet the requirements of the SHA, even if that kills the deal or alters it substantially for the sake of traffic abatement? Do we both agree that the SHA has to take comments, both pro and con?
@Keith Gabel
All the planning and zoning governing bodies should consider the requirements and the facts following the prescribed process and procedure.
@Common Sense – At last, we agree on something. The citizens of the area are using their powers under the law to the same extent that Walmart is and both will have to abide by the decisions made by the governing authorities. On this issue, the matter is traffic abatement.
@Keith Gabel
The are two primary groups of histrionic adversarial groups that have come together agains Walmart.
1. Stop Walmart because we hate them.
2. Stop all commercial development.
Group one would go away if the development was a Target, Kohls or Whole Foods.
Group two will never be satisfied until the property is rendered or estopped from being developed.
On the matter of traffic studies. They are subjective in their projections. If a type of business generates X amount of traffic a day it doesn’t mean all the vehicles are new traffic and it matters what time of day the traffic occurs.
A resident of Abingdon cannot be both a commuter returning from work and a customer driving to Walmart on a particular trip in a time-of-day traffic count.
@Common Sense
Well said.
I agree with you about two of the groups you mentioned, both 1 & 2. Here in Harford county, we have a 3rd group, those who want easier traffic flows and would be fine with a super huge Walmart as long as it doesn’t make the trip into and out of Bel Air any more difficult than it is presently.
Are you arguing that the SHA uses flawed methodology in general? I’ll admit that I am not a statistician, but I understand that we have to use something. Is there a better system being used in a different state that the SHA should be using?
@Keith Gabel
All studies are flawed and imperfect and the data can be interpreted in a biased manner.
We should still use the studies.
I have worked on P&Z presentations for commercial projects and in one example in Georgia we had a difficult time with parking requirements and traffic for a 10,00 sq. ft child care facility.
Zoning wanted us to have 75 parking spaces and they believed that increased traffic was a going to be a big impact.
In reality child care facilities don’t need that many spaces because parents drop-off and pick-up their children.
And families will typically only drive 8 minutes to their child care provider so there was no new traffic just the same local residents going to a different location and in many cases driving fewer miles not more.
The project was approved with 35 parking spots and we convinced the P&Z that the traffic impact was de minimis.
Were there people dead set against it? You bet.
@Common Sense
Thank you that was helpful. I’ve heard similar complaints from others, with results in their stories being determined by some kind of bargain between government and the competing interests, similar to the one you have described.
@Keith Gabel
All permit, planning and zoning matters are about bargaining.
Always.
@Common Sense
I’ve heard that as well. Thank you for pointing it out.
I’m not accusing you of this, but I don’t think that you said it or necessarily believe it. There are those who, on the surface of things, seem to be opposed to traffic abatement on 24 and 924 just because some people don’t like Walmart. (Having read your more recent posts, I think you don’t like the visceral anti-Walmart people more than being in favor of worse traffic.)
As for me, my concerns number two things, when infrastructure (roads) fail to keep up with the pace of development, resulting in traffic congestion and/or public safety concerns. When commercial buildings of any size are left derelict. I include abandoned storefronts on Main Street in this. Business needs a certain critical mass in order to thrive.
I think that we may agree on these two issues as well.
@Keith Gabel
Rational traffic planning is part of commercial development. And area where government plays an important and useful role.
I don’t know of any abandoned buildings. While there are vacant ones.
Vacant buildings on Main Street Bela Air are not commercially attractive and the best occupancy rate in my opinion is about 65% and if it weren’t a County Seat my estimate would be 40%.
The Abingdon Walmart is commercially attractive.
It is also the province of the private commercial marketplace to determine economic viability not government or concerned citizens.
For example just because many of the concerned citizens have their opinions about what would be better use than a new Walmart, it doesn’t matter. It’s not their investment capital.
People have expressed we don’t need another Walmart, however a Trader Joe’s would be great. My response is so what.
In terms of business development, there is really no difference between an abandoned or a vacant building, both are simultaneously opportunities and hindrances. Empty store fronts breed empty storefronts, if left empty for too long. A vibrant commercial area draws greater investment, at least from my experiences on York Road, in the city.
The Abingdon Walmart is commercially attractive for some, I agree. The former Walmart near Eastpoint Mall, however, hasn’t been commercially attractive since it was allowed to sit vacant by its owner some years ago. I’ve heard nothing but conjecture on either side over whether or not the Constant Friendship site will be commercially attractive or not.
Again, I could care less about the new or old Walmart site provided that a lack of foresight by transportation planners leaves the area looking more and more like Reisterstown Road or Laurel, which are prone to gridlock. It is in this area in which private concern is greater than business concerns, as it is public capital that is being expended in greater amounts. Walmart will pay something to get cars into and out of its parking lot. Whatever errors, either in favor or against the Walmart site, that transportation planners make along 924 and 24, the cost will be borne by the public. If everyone on both sides can accept these public expenditures on improved infrastructure, then most of the controversy goes away.
@Keith Gabel
How much less could you care?
Cost will be borne by taxpayers including in great part commercial property owners and business owners who pay a lot of taxes.
It’s pretty clear Keith that you are fighting to maintain the status quo and keep Walmart out and keep this property undeveloped.
@Common Sense –
Incorrect. I’m fine with the development as long as Bel Air and Abingdon aren’t de facto cut off from each other due to clogged streets, much akin to Reisterstown Road, US 1 in Laurel, etc. As long as the infrastructure grows to support development, then all is good by me.
What is wrong with roads being improved to keep up with development? Everyone benefits. There is no downside.
@Keith Gabel –
There is no expectation of privacy for an organization to send an individual a letter.
In fact in the case of the Chamber letter to you there is an explicit expectation that the Chambers’ stated response is NOT private or confidential.
What you did by bringing the Chamber Letter up and referencing it without revealing its full contents calls into question the veracity of your statements in regard to the Chamber and this issue.
Besides do you really think that the Chamber has a different position on your questions to them than they do for anyone else.
You are doing the Chamber and yourself a disservice and you should remedy it.
They said they knew of no letter and no keith G…..
;(
@Common Sense
I cannot argue with the manner in which you choose to live your life. I made it clear to the Chamber of Commerce when I wrote to them that my issues were not a matter of public record. Yes, I summarized the response, which was lukewarm and non-committal, which is what I expected. What I didn’t expect was an actual response. No, I will not go against my word. The Chamber of Commerce is entitled to speak for itself, but I can almost guarantee that if it chose to do so, its response would be useless for those for or against the proposed Walmart.
No, I don’t expect them to give me a different answer than anyone else. Do I expect them to put it into a proper form, such as a press release or a position paper? Yes, I do.
Perhaps I am doing a disservice to the public, but then, so far, nobody else seems willing to ask the Chamber to go onto the public record with an opinion. ‘Disgusted’ has been in contact with them and is more than willing to share the information he has gleaned from them on this issue.
@Disgusted – Good for you. I’m still not going to help you. However, it appears that you have some useful information to share? Why don’t you share it? You can start with what disgusts you about your many of your neighbors not wanting extra traffic burdens and an abandoned Walmart in their community.
@Keith Gabel
This is about you and your actions.
It is disingenuous for you to reference a letter you contend to be “confidential” and then comment about it.
You’re just wrong about this Chamber/Gabel letter correspondence matter.
Your reputation and credibility has been diminished.
@Common Sense – Really? My reputation is diminished in the eyes of people named “Common Sense” and “Disgusted”. I can live with that.
“Disgusted” doesn’t like his neighbor’s and community’s attempts to expand the old Walmart and to work on traffic abatement but won’t tell us why. Kharn’s advice for people like that is to move to Whiteford or Cecil County. Oh, no, his reputation is diminished for not doing so.
You seemed to be concerned more about a hypothetical diminishing of property rights than you do your own community. How about expending some of that energy trying to improve the situation so that you get your traffic abatement so that you can get to Walmart easier, as well as the other businesses along 924. Oh, no! Your reputation has been diminished because you seek out only to maintain the status quo.
If you can’t be bothered to help with the situation for everyone’s benefit, including Walmart, the least you can do is to be quiet and accept whatever compromise the adults make.
@Keith Gabel –
You are disingenuous.
I called you on your malarkey and you don’t like it.
@Common Sense
I did the same for you and you don’t like it either. Worse, you don’t care about your community.
@Keith Gabel
You have been proven unreliable and untrustworthy.
I support the Walmart relocation, increased tax base, job creation and the positive economic development within the development envelope in accordance with planning and zoning for our community.
@Common Sense
You have proven yourself untrustworthy and unsavory, as you put your faith in government processes above the needs and desires of your community. When the areas near your residence are rezoned according to the process, I hope you get as much help as you’ve offered others, which is to tell them to have faith in the government to do what’s best for you.
I take is as a compliment that someone so attached to lucre finds me untrustworthy. It reassures my faith in God and community.
K Gable,
Show me the letter and then we can meet to discuss the letter which you say exists and I say does not exist. I don’t care if the Walmart gets built or not. If it does, I will go. But I do think the people who are opposing it are doing so for selfish reasons. Walmart is doing what the law says they are entitled to do. You may not like it and that’s your issue. But neither you nor I get to decide which laws are obeyed or ignored based on our own selfish preferences.
@Alex R –
Thanks for the consideration, but no, that won’t work on this medium. We will have to agree to disagree both on my letter and whether or not people have the power to use government, the SHA, Zoning and Planning, and their elected leaders in order to mitigate traffic concerns. Others feel differently. I am not including you that group, as you indicate in your last message that you’d stand by any decision made by those governmental bodies, be they in favor or against the Walmart and the traffic issue.
Thanks!
@Keith Gabel
Seems Alex R and maybe the Disgusted one aren’t interested in meeting with you now that you won;t reveal the mysterious secret confidential holy Walmart Chamber letter.
How’s that working out for you?
@Common Sense-
“Disgusted” loathes his neighbors and his community. I doubt I missed much.
Alex R seems interesting and, unlike you, seems to not be opposed to traffic mitigation and the rule of law, of which this petitioning of the SHA is a part.
I’m glad I won’t be seeing you. One of your phantom property rights may be trampled and you could attempt to harm us once the voices in your head tell you to do so.
How’s your paranoia working out?
Keith, You know and I know and we all know that the Chamber as a body does not write “private” letters. Perhaps a member acting as an individual might express an opinion in writing or verbally but not the Chamber as a body.
@ALEX R – The Chamber will say nothing publicly. We all know that. We all know why, as well. If they have a favorable opinion, they will anger small business and Walmart’s competitors, like Target. If they have an unfavorable opinion, Walmart will actively work against it. Having an opinion is a lose, lose, situation for it.. Unfortunately, sometimes in life, one has to be a grown-up and choose a side. Otherwise, one will be chosen for you. In this instance, there silence is working against the small and medium sized, locally owned businesses along the 924 and 24 corridors.
We all know they aren’t saying anything publicly. That’s not even news. You said there is a letter to you. I say there isn’t any letter. So where is the letter?
“I say there isn’t any letter”
That’s pretty much the info I received.
Fine. When and where would you all like to meet so we can discuss this in person?
@Keith Gabel
What?
You are going to show the highly confidential Walmart Chamber letter to Alexa R and the Disgusted?
Aren’t you violating your holy oath to keep it a secret?
Say it isn’t so!
I say you meet at public place like…let me think?
I got it!
Walmart, where all the parties will be safe.
@Common Sense
I believe I said that we would discuss the issue. “Disgusted” will tell us why he loathes his neighbors and his community for their efforts to preserve traffic flow, something I’m sure that makes you sick as well. Perhaps it will be therapeutic for you to come as well. You can tell him that he should trust the government and the system and, if he does get sick, you can offer him no assistance whatsoever.
Alex R., at least, seems like he’d be interested in a back and forth over the issues. He may be able to convince me, unlike you, that trusting the government and the developers will keep traffic flowing at the same rate without undue public expense.
Oh, no, the horror! Traffic abatement for everyone! Soon it will be the rise of the Third Reich! No more property rights! That will be the result we improve the roads on 924 and 24.
@Keith Gabel
Maybe I’m wrong but I thought Alex R and the Disgusted one 🙂 would only want to me with you if you brought your super secret confidential Walmart Chamber letter?
Otherwise what would the point be?
@Common Sense-
Some people like to exchange ideas with the hope of changing opinions. Alex R and Disgusted may have valid reasons to be opposed to traffic mitigation. I can see that you are opposed to traffic mitigation as a matter of dogma, lest it infringe on some theoretical property right that you have no intent of ever using.
For those who have not realizes it, I am a dbag that someone blew up with hot air. There is no basis in fact for anything I say and I sit around in my Mom’s basement trying to boost my self confidence while my mom makes me hot pockets and warm milk.
I’m sorry I said there was a chamber letter, there wasn’t. I’m sorry I said I talked to planning and zoning, I didn’t. I’m sorry I said I was in contact with the county council, I’m not. Be gentle with me I’m just a man who found the dagger and thought you would all be my friend if I acted like I was a big deal……
I am sincerely sorry.
Good to see you Common Sense and/or Disgusted and/or the fake version of Money Tree.
This even assumes Walmart would actively market the old location. They essentially compete with most other kinds of retail, so they normally let their vacant properties sit when they relocate nearby so as not to invite competition. They want to make sure they get all their former customers over to the new store before they let another store open.
Good for Walmart, bad for Abingdon.
My hope is that the site is so valuable they will let it go sooner rather than later.
The Constant Friendship property is poorly located (the 924 overpass situation is not a favorite intersection for many people), isolated, and with a single point of entry. Given the traffic problems already present, I’m not sure anyone else would want that property. Maybe an indoor skate park or something, but another store? Who would be interested?
How will the new property be any different in terms of access roads and traffic issues?
It is bad for business and central Harford County to have abandoned property (ies) greeting drivers along only main thoroughfare leading from the highway towards town. Walmart was interested in the property when access to it was worse. Its isolation and single point of entry wasn’t a concern until it started its charm offensive to win over the local population for the new location.
In defense of the Chamber, they did acknowledge that an abandoned property there would look bad and would be bad for the surrounding business community.
Kharn
I’m shocked we actually agree on something.
@Noble –
There’s no assuming that Walmart will market their old Abingdon location.
Walmart has their own realty company whose purpose is to sub-lease, lease or sell their real estate inventory of former locations.
Walmart doesn’t abandon relocated stores they make money on them.
I know they do, and of course they make money off selling the old properties.
But an inordinate number of them sit on the market for a very long time, and it’s partly because their strategy is not to have it go to a competitor until they have made sure all their old customers follow them to the new location.
It’s quite clever, just bad for the community they leave.
@noble
There’s no evidence to support that former Walmart’s “sit on the market for a very long time” any more than other similarly sized and located properties.
It may be that former Walmart locations are more attractive for re-development when compared to former Sears and Kmarts?
And it’s not “clever” for Walmart to let assets sit idle with no tenant.
How is it of any more or less of a concern to the public what walmart does with it’s property then what the Dahan foundation does with it’s property?
It may not be viewed by you as clever but Walmart does have a very well documented history of abandoning and not redeveloping their old Walmart buildings. They typically move to another location less than 5 miles away from the old site. They do not want to compete with themselves so they let them sit vacant. This is not new news, just Walmart’s SOP.
@D writes “Walmart does have a very well documented history of abandoning and not redeveloping their old Walmart buildings.”
Where is this reliable, authoritative and well documented history you reference?
Is possible that the soft commercial real estate market and anemic business development are helping keep not only surplus Walmarts but also Circuit City, Sears, Kmart, Cmart, CompUSA, OfficeMax, etc…from either being leased or sold?
Oh and Walmart continues to pay property taxes on these properties as well.
@Common Sense
You should check out Kharns comments re the Walmart at Constant Friendship
” I’m not sure anyone else would want that property. Maybe an indoor skate park or something, but another store? Who would be interested?”
@Tom –
It’s a shell of a building that could be used for many things.
It won’t be a grocery store.
Hopefully the new Walmart will have a clinic, so all the so called poor people can get a freee check up with their Oboma Care insurance. Somoe of the sudo rich here were proably the same ones that shopped at C-mart or bought a dress at Macy’s for a formal dinner and returned it the next day.
Is the fox watching the hen house? In the MDTA’s next development phase of the I-95 toll lane project called section 200 there is a plan to put a park and ride on the southeast corner of 924/24/Tollgate. The current Abingdon Walmart is in the southeast corner of that intersection. Are there plans to pave this over by the state and make a park and ride lot there? It seems that this whole land situation may not be an arms length transaction. Could this be why we have received very little support from our state elected officials? We the people, the taxpayers, have become impediments to their plan for Maryland.
Section 200 will also tie into the opening up of Tollgate Road at Plumtree (in process per MDTA) to provide what the state calls “an alternative to commuters that use rt 24 everyday”. Anyone in Constant Friendship that thinks Walmart’s move is a good idea has no clue what will come their way. Tollgate Road, also a school zone in 2 areas, will also see the gridlock and road rage that is currently seen on 924 in the Plumtree area.
And yes, Mr. Whelman, the state should not allow Walmart’s lack of effective response to their requests for traffic and intersection mitigation. Hopefully the state will realize what we all already know–it is already too much. It’s not just too much at Plumtree but too much beyond it, too much pass-by traffic and not enough space to improve things safely given the proximity to neighborhoods, hospitals, fire stations, and schools.
What bizzarro world do you live in? The current Walmart is on the North West side of I95.
I’m afraid you need to check on some of your information.
The proposed park and ride (at least 5-10 years away by the way, if ever) would sit behind the Wawa with an entrance from Woodsdale. It has nothing to do with the Walmart. The plans for this are on the MDTA website.
Also, the closure of the Plumtree/Tollgate access to MD24 has long been sought by the state. MD24 is a limited access highway and according to the state there are already 1 or 2 more access points than they planned it for, and they have been pushing the County to close off at least one. If you look at them all now, Plumtree would be the most likely to close. It has nothing to do with the 200 project. Connecting Tollgate and closing Plumtree also has nothing to do with Walmart– both of these things were already being talked about long before Walmart even sniffed the site at Plumtree.
Yes, MDTA website on Section 200 related projects says this:
Tollgate Road
Currently Harford County is in the planning phase for the extension of Tollgate Road from Bel Air South Parkway to Plumtree Road. The project will provide an additional route for commuters who use MD 24 as their primary route between Bel Air and I-95.
Yes, it “states it” as a matter of reality, in the sense of “here is some unrelated but tangential information”, but there is no “tie” between them. To state that there is a “tie” eludes to it all being part of one giant plan, which is just not true.
As I said, the plan to complete Tollgate Rd has been talked about in Harford County long before the 200 project even birthed itself, as has been the push from the state to close an access point on 24. These issues are not “tied” together except by asphalt and hearsay.
And neither has anything to do with Walmart.
Is there a bigger issue of development and traffic? Of course. I feel bad for people on North Tollgate, but if you look at a map with a road with the same name divided by a bunch of tress in between, you gotta think a little and assume one day it’s going to be connected. It’s not going to get a lot of sympathy when those people are suddenly all shocked and horrified by the idea.
@CS–we really don’t know if they pay property taxes. Often there are incentives for Walmart to build. Tax abatement is easily built into the deal making it a zero sum situation. Commercial realtors, developers, and our state and county folks know this game all too well.
Following is just one article link with excerpts from the article that follow. See article for complete citations.
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/03/walmart_supercenters_now_outnumber_regular_walmart_stores_poll.html
“We’re seeing this all over the country, where Walmart is abandoning stores that in many cases are not that old and moving down the street or a mile down the road to build a new Supercenter” on vacant land, said Stacy Mitchell, a senior researcher”
“Unlike older buildings in most business districts that can accommodate different uses over the years, Walmart’s cavernous, windowless buildings “are built to spec for a specific use” that make them hard to adapt to other tenants, she said. “There just aren’t many retailers who need more than 100,000 square feet.”
“Many also remain empty because the company designs its lease agreements to block those most likely to move in — its big-box competitors, Mitchell said. ”
Jeff Pritchard, Streetsboro’s director of planning, zoning and economic development, said the company stipulates that new uses “can’t be something that competes with their existing facility,”
@D
I was careful to ask you for “reliable, authoritative and well documented history” of your opinion that Walmart is doing something untoward in their real estate transactions.
You failed to do that by giving us anti-Walmart opinion as your proof.
!D –
Also we do know how much Walmart pays in real property taxes since it’s public record.
To answer your tax question.
District – 01 Account Number – 261940
Wal-Mart property assessed value as of 07/01/2013
401 Arundel Court
Abingdon MD 21009
$12,163,567 / 100 = $121,635.67 X .896 = $108,985.56 County Taxes.
$121,635.67 X .146 = $17,758.81 for Highway.
$121,635.67 X .112 = $13,623.20 to the State of Maryland.
Real Estate Tax Rate: Based on $100 of assessed value you pay: In County: .896 to the County, .146 for Highway, .112 to the State of Maryland
That’s not nearly enough. They should be paying 3, 5, 10 times that amount because they don’t pay their employees enough and they sell all that Chinese trash no one needs. They should pay 100 billion trillion kazillion dollars cause I hate them and they don’t deserve to keep their profits.
When did this version of Money Tree get laid off from Walmart?
It’s almost embarrassing to have someone so arrogant and ignorant stalk me and pretend to be me on multiple threads. I honestly think this is supposed to be a mock on my opinion of Walmart rather than anything serious or contributory and I don’t think this person is averse to Walmart – certainly not the way I am. I don’t shop Walmart because I want to preserve my town and it’s character – but recognize my aversion isn’t a valid reason to stop a legal process but the traffic issue just may be.
@The Money Tree
Bad form to impersonate.
But I’m having a hard time with your to “to preserve my town and it’s character “.
What model are you going for semi-agricultural/semi-industrial/military complex, Elizabethan, Norman Rockwell, Pre-Civil War Taney Style, Post-modern Eisenhower, contemporary Reagan/Clinton or futurist IKEA?
I suspect you are just wanting NO Walmart in Abingdon.
You’re a NIMBYist plain and simple.
It’s alright we get it.
How about they open an Amish market in the old Wallyworld, with a meat and seafood vendor.
That’s just what the county needs.
That would be cool!
I’ve noticed that there are many people who are favor of a new Walmart location. The roads surrounding the area will be improved to handle the increased flow of traffic. Who is in favor of this being completely publicly financed and who feels that Walmart and/or the developers should pay some proportion of it, based on increased burden.
Somehow, not wanting to sit in traffic on 924 and 24 has gotten many people labeled as either “anti-Walmart” or wanting to trample property rights.
Common Sense, I can defend my points of view myself but thanks for the help.
Keith, We do indeed agree, I think, that the law must prevail. What must NOT prevail is a bunch of people opposed to this project for their own selfish reasons who believe they can stir up enough outcry and file frivolous lawsuits so that they are able to circumvent the law by means of harassment of public officials. I’m sorry they don’t like it. Believe me, there is a long list of things I don’t like but they are legal are in place because the law allows them. I must live with it until I can get the law changed and so must they.
@Alex R – Well said. What is definitely NOT needed is lawsuits from any party.
Legal redress is certainly appropriate if a party wants to pursue its objective.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I haven’t talked to a lot of people who want to stir up trouble and circumvent the law for purely selfish reasons… maybe you have.
What I do see though, is practicality. The one thing most likely to stop the Walmart at Plumtree is Walmart themselves, and it’s absolutely a worthwhile tactic for an opposition group to try to make the entire process as painful as possible for Walmart and in the process, possibly, make them think twice about the whole thing. A long shot, but crazier things have happened.
Also, I hear you saying that people are arrogant for trying to tell Walmart how to run their business, but I don’t think that’s accurate. Obviously Walmart itself is best qualified to decide how to do that.
But who is best suited to decide what’s best for a community? The people in it. I see people standing up for what they think is best for their community, and they have as much right to do so as Walmart does in doing business, regardless of whether you or I agree with either.
@noble
U have been unfailingly thoughtful, insightful and well spoken (Lol! unlike the rest of us) through this “tit o tat” U are certainly representative, in my opinion, of the No Walmart at Plumtree group. I’m glad I’m on ur side
Cheers! Tom
Good with me, Noble, as long as the law and the legal process is followed let the chips fall where they might. What bothers me is the attitude of “I don’t care if it is legal it has to be stopped because it is inconvenient for me or makes me unhappy.” Not saying that is true of you but it is true of many. That plus the expressed opinion of, and I am paraphrasing here “Walmart and everyone who goes there are trash.”
@Alex R
No doubt you can speak for yourself.
Keith Gabel selectively hears what people say.
P.S. Can’t wait to see the famous super secret confidential Walmart Chamber Opinion Keith Gabel Letter.
@Common Sense –
Perhaps if you were more articulate, we could understand you.
Alex
No one is circumventing the law. We’re willing to let the SHA and the Maryland state govmnt decide the issue.
Anyway no one is anti-Walmart. If the company were to expand the Constant friendship store just 2 miles south of Plumtree Rd and just off I95, everyone would fine with it. It would cost less money and heartache for everyone including Walmart.
And who is the “We” that you are representing when you say “We’re willing to . . . . . ” Are you an official spokesperson for some group? Are you assuming that position without permission? Just who are you speaking for??
Walmart certainly doesn’t agree with you or they would be expanding their Abingdon store as you suggest. They aren’t and I don’t blame them. How arrogant of you to tell a multi-billion dollar international company what is in their best interest unless you are a member of their senior management team, a consultant they have hired or a stockholder. I didn’t use the word “circumvent”. And please don’t tell me no one is anti-Walmart. A full half of the postings on Dagger re: this issue are scathing towards Walmart and the people who shop there. I can read and so can you.
Do you deny that the SHA and the state of Maryland have the legal power and right to decide this issue?
Yes, within the bounds of the applicable laws and regulations that govern their actions, and subject to judicial review of their decision if requested. The process cannot be influenced by people marching in the streets because they don’t want the legal process to prevail over their perceived personal inconvenience. Certainly they have a right to do that in America but there can be no expectation that anyone’s wishes can trump the law when the two are at odds.
Again, who is that you are speaking for / representing when you say “We’re willing to . . . “
“Yes, within the bounds of the applicable laws and regulations that govern their actions, and subject to judicial review of their decision if requested” and that would include any corporation Walmart included. Correct?
and of course the developers…how can we forget them