I’m sure I don’t need to remind anyone that it’s been a little less than 9 years since the September 11th terror attacks left a gaping wound in lower Manhattan – a wound that still seems very fresh. The images and fears of that day cross my mind regularly, and it seems there are reminders on every news page and TV show.
Ask any American where they were that day or what their personal memory of 9/11 is and they don’t even have to think about it. I was on the air that morning with Rouse & Company. We had switched from 1057 to 1027 only a day before and it was Kristie McIntyre’s second day with us. We were watching the TODAY show when the first plane hit, and then the second. Quickly we realized it was no accident: we were under attack and all the emergency broadcast plans that sit in every radio and TV studio in the country were for the first time put into action. In the case of CBS Baltimore, all 5 stations (WWMX, WLIF, WQSR, WXVY, WJFK-AM) were linked together to be anchored from the WQSR studio. All the staff was sent home, except Matt Tacka and myself who stayed to hold down the fort. We stayed for a very long, very strange day.
In the days and weeks that followed, I visited the Pentagon site, where the smell of jet fuel still hung heavily in the air. On my way to LA for the “Weakest Link” game show the first week of October, I had a stopover at JFK in New York and, as we flew in, the cabin fell stone silent as we all caught sight of the smoke still pouring from the then month-old Ground Zero site.
As I said, the memories are still fresh…as I am sure they are for you.
That’s why the debate about the Cordoba House is so heated. It’s been the main topic of many a talk radio show and the argument seems to be getting even hotter.
If you’ve missed it, Cordoba House is the proposed 13-story, $100-million Mosque and Islamic community center planned for the Ground Zero site (actually about half a block away in the old Burlington Coat Factory Building).
The outrage caused by the “Ground Zero Mosque” has known no bounds, crossing party lines and infuriating CEOs and soccer moms alike. The idea that a Mosque is being built alongside such hallowed ground seems unacceptable to a huge majority of Americans.
After all wasn’t it Muslims who destroyed the Twin Towers? Wasn’t it Muslims who killed nearly 3,000 innocent Americans in one fell swoop? Shouldn’t these Muslims be stopped from erecting a “victory” monument so close to the scab of the once great World Trade Center?
If you are one of the millions of Americans who wants to “Stop the Mosque” and you think that the mosque amounts to building a monument to the terrorists “victory” then I have some bad news for you – you are dead wrong.
First and foremost, there are millions, perhaps billions of followers of Islam in the world. Of that population, only teeny tiny percentages are “fundamentalists” – aka the “Bad Muslims.” The rest are just like most of us – they get up everyday and they go to work to feed their kids and pay their bills, they come home and bitch about how bad reality TV is. The difference is the way that they worship their God differently than Christians, those of the Jewish faith and so on.
For too long, we have equated the words “Muslim” and “terrorist.” Those two words simply do not equate. (And please spare me the chain e-mails on the subject. I’ve seen them all. Just because it was forwarded to you by your Uncle Freddy, doesn’t make it a fact).
The problem is not now, nor has it ever been, Muslims; the problem is extremism. In all its forms extremism is dangerous. The bombing at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 was perpetrated by Christian extremists – have we stopped the building of any churches because of it? I don’t think so.
Once again, we are left with this grim realization – living in a free society dictates that you will inevitably have to deal with things that you don’t like; and you can’t just go around stopping things that you don’t like. You may not like the idea of a Mosque going up at Ground Zero, but the Muslim community has the absolute guaranteed right to build there and any lawmaker who puts forth legislation to stop them should step down from his office immediately. His grasp of the Constitution is too flimsy to continue.
The big fear in allowing the Mosque seems to be that it will say to the world that the terrorists have won. On the contrary, preventing the Mosque from being built, altering our way of life because of what happened on September 11th 2001 – that specifically would give the win to the bad guys.
Having said all that…
The group responsible for building the Mosque says that they are building it as a way to open up dialogue and promote understanding between the Muslim community and the community at large. While I truly believe they may have the very best of intentions at heart, I have to say this may be a bit misguided. They do in fact have the absolute right to build and worship wherever they choose. However, I think that if their idea is to promote understanding and peaceful dialogue, building right on top of Ground Zero is going to do more to make people mad.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses may have some interesting ideas to share with me about Christianity. I don’t really want them at my door on Christmas morning. There’s a time and a place for things, always.
Writing on the Wall
While in DC a few weeks ago, I passed through a bad part of town and noticed the following written on the wall:
“Capitalism is the foolish idea that there is no such thing as too much.”
As a believer in the free market, I’d like to counter that with the following:
“Socialism is the foolish idea that everyone will always work together.”
After a week-long hospital stay, rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated, and despite the fact that my prescriptions cost (no kidding) over $2,000, I am NOT changing my position on government sponsored healthcare. I’ll tell you why next week. Plus, the story of me and the band hiding in the back of the van while sneaking over the border.
I also believe that individuals have the right to worship as they see fit. My only issues is determining whether or not the Mosque is truly being erected (just around the corner from where Muslim extremists killed 3,000 Americans) in the name of “opening dialog” between Muslims and non-Muslims. One telltale sign of the true intent would be to “follow the money” and determine who is funding the building of the Mosque. I would guess that “rent” aint that cheap in that part of town….what, with all the fat-cat “capitalist pigs” in that part of the city that can afford thousands of dollars per month in rent alone. No, I suspect that if you were to follow the funding trail you will find out the true intent of why a group must choose a site for a Mosque so close to where their own murdered innocent people. One thing is for sure….it will certainly “open dialog” between folks.
Bruce O'H. says
Actually, no one wishes to deny anyone’s right to worship. And contrary to your view that anyone can build a house of worship wherever they want, they can not. There are zoning laws that prohibit the building of churches in certain areas all of the time. While zoning laws do not pertain to the Ground Zero Poke In The Infidels Eye, I bring them up to make a point.
If you’ve done any research on the Imam, you will note that he is not a “moderate” Moslem, which I’m beginning to doubt the existence of, despite your Ward Cleaver description of such an entity. He has ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. He helped finance the flotilla that attempted to break the Gaza blockade. In short, he is a politically active moslem leader on a global scale who is at the least sympathetic to worldwide jihadism.
While you may see it as a victory for our way of life to allow the insult to be built and opened on 9/11/11, the muslim world will see it as the commemoration of THEIR victory on that day in 2001.
The days of political correctness whether it makes sense or not, especially if it is contrary to OUR best interests are over for a lot of folks. We’ve proven our tolerance, let the muslims prove theirs to us for a change.
Let me hear the voice of “moderate” moslems, let me see them take to the streets waving American flags and denouncing the terrorists. Let me hear of them turning terrorists in from their communities.
Do you “hear” that deafening silence?
Startin' Something says
Bruce, Maynard wasn’t implying that any religion could build their house of worship anywhere. He was assuming that reasonably intelligent people would understand that he meant that all other conditions and reqirements would be met (for others like yourself, I guess further explanation is required). Also, get a copy of the U.S. Constitution, then read it, then come back to this blog and try to defend your stupid / biased opinions. Imam has nothing to do with OUR constitution, but YOU want to igore it? Maybe your are the terrorist in disguise!
This is a local zoning issue…..PERIOD. If we stop it nationally you are saying that the US congress should have the right to tell you where you can build your house! The people of the city and county of New York have polocies, the land was bought on the free market, and the work is being done and putting people to work.
Bruce O'H. says
I’ve said nothing about Congress. And the local authorities have been the ones appealed to in this case. What ever the Hell you’re talking about?
On the other hand, the White House has made it a national issue by financing this imams overseas trip to drum up money for the insult. This is all politics, and the President, once again, is siding against the American people. 70% of New Yorkers oppose the mosque being built in THAT spot because they see the reality of it’s symbolism and refuse to accept the insult.
If you don’t think the Obama Admin has not exerted pressure on Bloomberg, you ain’t paying attention.
That’s OK, come November, we’re beginning the process of being done with ALL of this type bullcrap. We’ve HAD it !!!
They are being appealed to people who are not residents of the city and county of New York. Those are the ONLY people who get a say. It is not a NATIONAL issue it is local. This is local government and local people who set a zoning code. When People like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity use this to stir up the base as if someone should step in to stop it, they are making it a national issue. They are essentially saying that local government should not get to determine their zoning laws and a private land owner has no right to sell their land on the free market!
Bruce O'H. says
This is going to be a truly shocking concept to you, but Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Bruce O’H and Cdev are all allowed to have their opinions on this.
America was struck on 9/11/01 in three different sites. The World Trade Center is the primary symbol of that attack for ALL Americans.
While there is no disagreement on my part that it’s for local authorities to decide, I don’t have to agree with their decision as an American.
I find it humorous that Extreme Leftists think that Limbaugh and Hannity “stir up” the base. Actually they speak for their listeners. And anytime the Extreme Left doesn’t like what they say, then they’ve said something of good sense, good principles or patriotism. Isn’t it “funny” that the Extreme Left is offended by such?
Yes but while we may all have opinions on this…..the US constitution gives the right to determine land use and zoning laws to the states which in New York is given to counties. So the opinions that matter are those of the people of the City and County of New York. They have a zoning procedure in place and that was followed so while I may not like it; they followed the law in order to get zoning approval for this building and like any other builder who follows the law they get to build what they already got approval for. Someone living in Maryland does not get permission to tell New Yorkers what they can do with the land they bought. Likewise I am sure you would agree you would not like some one from California telling you what modifications are acceptable to your house.
Startin' Something says
70% of New Yorkers are wrong. Perfect example of why we have a “representative republic” and not a true “democracy”.
Uninformed or irrational crowds demanding a “lynching” of innocent “negros” years ago would be an example of the same. So pleeeeeeeeese don’t give us “facts” that don’t comply with the laws of our land, because they are irrelevant. You said “we’ve HAD it!” Well I say “bring it on”!
Phil Dirt says
Lame, lame, lame.
Suppose a group that called themselves Catholics killed several thousand Americans in an act of terrorism. Next, suppose that the Vatican remained silent about the event committed by supposed members of their organization. Rather than distancing themselves from the association with the killers, they instead proposed building a cathedral approximately on the site of the act. Would there be an outcry? Of course!
Now, suppose that immediately following same terroristic event, the Church issued public statements denouncing the actions, renouncing the perpetrators and expressing profound horror at the twisting of their beliefs and abuse of their organization’s name and reputation by these individuals who carried out this abomination. Further, suppose that the Vatican later announced the construction of a cathedral at the site to honor the victims and an interfaith gathering place to work with other religions and social organizations to promote peaceful coexistance and work toward preventing this sort of act from happening again.
I would prefer that neither place of worship was constructed. The second example could perhaps benefit from the second example. They are getting the first. If you can’t see the difference, I feel sorry for you.
Maynard says “The rest are just like most of us …” I beg to differ. The fact is when Christian extremists act out they are hunted down and punished by their fellow Christians (among others) through law enforcement, witness tips, and so forth while Muslims largely turn a blind eye to most any Muslim extremism including the murder of innocents; be they Christian, Muslim or their own family. I recall the videos of those average peace loving, just like us, Muslims dancing in the streets on 9/11. If a plane were crashed into the Kaaba in Mecca would we see video at 6 of Christians dancing in the streets? Since they don’t HAVE to build there, I only see two possibilities with regard to the ground zero mosque:
1.The planners are so stupid they don’t realize the affect their plan has on the majority of Americans and that proceeding will NOT foster friendship and understanding. OR
2.They do realize and offending Americans is exactly what they intend.
I leave it up to you all to decide which it is.
Bruce O'H. says
I just heard this morn, on the Tom Marr radio show, an FDNY firefighter, who was one of the first responder survivors of the Towers collapse. He stated strongly that this insult will NOT be built. He said firefighters and the families of civilian casualties are prepared to lay on the ground to prevent construction. I’m with the heros, the familys, the American Patriots, and the 70% of Americans who WILL NOT stand for this moslem victory memorial.
If the controlling Extreme Left weren’t for it, they could declare that hallowed ground a State or National Park. But the Extreme Left choose to side with the forces aligned against American citizens. Fine, we’re not accepting the Extreme Lefts lunacy any more. We’re fighting EVERY issue, by EVERY legal means available. We’ll see who prevails.
I also heard on the Tom Mahr that this was all Obamas fault and the liberal congress for it being allowed. I thought it was not a matter of federal govt. intervention. It is simply a local zoning issue. Your opinion of tatse is something you are entitled to. That said when we start letting the federal govt. dictate local zoning we eliminate local control. Any strict Constitutionalist realizes that while they may not like it the Constitution prevents any national intervention.
Sadly, it is indeed a local issue. After all, look what happened to Havre de Grace when the citizens voted to limit their zoning board’s authority. Hideous townhouses and condos block half the waterfront. I can’t find much on who ok’d this stupidity in New York buy maybe liberal New York is getting a heaping spoonful of what happens when they elect liberals to office. The real issue is the misguided idea that this group really wants to foster friendship and peace. They can’t possibly be so stupid that they fail to see the visceral reaction from the majority of Americans… or do they actually believe pissing off millions of Americans is the way to friendship and understanding… I’m a little confused with the logic here. I like Greg Gutfeld’s idea of building a gay bar next to the mosque. Better yet, a gay bar next to every mosque in America since Muslims are so tolerant and peaceful after all…
The same could be said about building abortion clinics next to Catholic Churches!
Phil Dirt says
Cdev – when did a Catholic group fly a plane into a pair of buildings? I must have missed that story.
Oh, you must mean the stories about the Catholic-ruled countries that stone to death women who have abortions.
Yeah, as always, you’re right. The two situations are completely identical. You da man, Cdev.
They didn’t but there is that fringe catholic that blew up an abortion clinic and the olympic park named Eric Robert Rudolph. The FBI calls him a terrorist.
I was simply using that as a point to illustrate that the zoning issue which is the only germaine issue is the strict pervew of the state, County and city of New York.
I further find it ironic that Rush, Sean Hannity and all those who wail about the Constitutionality of this that and the other are willing to toss the US Constitution out the window to suit their agenda.
I question the motives of the group building this and find it distasteful but I do not live in New York. They followed the existing laws to get permission to build it. It is not the federal govts. role to get involved and I find it distasteful that people would trample on the US Constitution out of convenence.
Hey Cdev, I’m glad you bring up Rudolph… that’s exactly what my earlier post was about. Rudolph went off the deep end and he was hunted down, captured and put away. That is how the rational world deals with rogues. The Muslim world on the other hand seems to have a very real problem with sticking up for what is right. They consistently turn a blind eye on rogues and refuse to deal with them. Any problems they have with acceptance among other religions is a reflection of their own lack of respect for other religions. The argument that Islam is peaceful will ring hollow until real progress is made to punish those that are titled “extremist” and not by outsiders but by their own.
fedup but was Rudolph hunted down by the Catholic Church or a secular govt.? For your analogy to hold true the Vatican would have hunted him down. That didn’t happen! The US govt, a secular nation, did. Needless to say my point that the abortion clinic bombers do not represent all catholics like jihadists do not represent all muslims!
You are the Caspar Milquetoast of The Dagger.
You’re a nothing; not a progressive, not a conservative, not a moderate. You have no firm beliefs, no positions and take no risks.
Cdev,was Rudolph hunted down by… what? Last I looked the Catholic Church had no police force… unlike the Islamic nations which are run by their religion. Had he been Baptist would you suggest the Baptists should have hunted him down? The simple fact remains that most Christians will turn in criminals to prevent further harm while most Muslims will not.
Also, I never said or implied that jihadists represent all Muslims simply that the Muslim world is apathetic to the behavior of the extremists among them. If the Muslim religion/nations would deal responsibly and decisively with extremism instead of ignoring it we would know they were dealing in good faith and not be having this discussion.
BulleRocker I have stated my very constitutional position on this issue.
fedup The Vatican has a police force. Additionally the Swiss Gaurd.
The Vatican would have or even Italy held Rudolph and failed to give extradition as long as the death penalty was on the table.
OK, Cdev, whatever… I put forth the argument that Muslim nations and their people turn a blind eye to atrocities committed when they are done to further the spread and influence of Islam. I stand by that point. Sure, the Vatican has a police force since it’s a country in and of itself. Yes, they also have the Swiss Guard who despite their funny outfits are a tough bunch. Are you suggesting they should have covertly invaded Georgia to capture Rudolph? My point is: if there were a nutjob running around wacking ANYBODY in Vatican City don’t you think they’d do everything possible to apprehend and incarcerate? The Islamic nations – citizenry or authority wise – do little or nothing to stop extremists in their religion and in the world because they don’t care.
I already agreed it was a local zoning issue. Were I on the board I might have suggested a ban on religious buildings within a given distance – unless already standing. The refusal to relocate clearly indicates their purpose. This has nothing to do with peace and understanding and it will accomplish neither. It’s grandstanding in the worst possible taste.
fedup the talk after the zoning hearing is also grandstanding. There is no legal stop to this at this point. They got a zoning permit. The time to be incensed wou;d have been before the zoning hearings!
Bruce O'H. says
Cdev, I find you to be a good hearted person and I enjoy the give and take with you.
No one is trying to disregard the Constitution. Every appeal has been made to the local Planning Board and the Historic Preservation Board. The folks who are against this had petitioned for Historic Building status, of which the Burlington factory was already on a list for consideration of such. Again, the petition went to a local New York Govt entity.
As for peaceful demonstrations against the mosque, this too is a Constitutional Right.
Why do you give all Constitutional Rights to the moslem interest, but feel that we should be denied ours to work against it?
And please bear in mind that it was the White House who threw the weight of the Federal Govt into this issue by financing the Imams fund raising trip for this project through the State Dept. We don’t have any dealing with the Fed Govt to aid our side of this issue. That charge confuses me.
The internet petition is being signed by people who are not New Yorkers. Their signing the petition is of no consequence as this is a local issue. I agree if people want to peacably assemble outside on public property….that is their right. That said the Firefighter you spoke of is not within the rights of the US Constitution and should understand he will be arrested if he lays himself in front of the construction crew.
I agree this is a good hearted conversation but sadly the fact that this is a local issue is what will keep any stopping of this.
I also want to clarify to some that not all muslims preach the violence against others that some claim.
I would also like to clarify that not all Muslims preach violence against others, just infidels. You do not hear a peep from any of the Muslim religious leaders denouncing the violence being perpetrated in the name of their religion. That speaks volumes for itself.
So you are lumping all muslims together? Should I by extension think all Christians are like the Westboro Baptist Church?
Not lumping together, as you chose a perfect example in the Westboro Baptist Church; a radical church that has been denounce by several Christian leaders. Still silence from the Muslim world. Why will no Muslim stand and denounce the high jacking of their religion? That is the question.
I have not heard alot of other christians condem Westboro I have heard other baptists do it but not alot of others. I have met other muslims who condem the wahabists!
For all the Kool-Aid drinkers that think putting a mosque at the site of 911 is not symbolic for the Islamic terrorists around the globe (and for the silent Muslim population that does not denounce them):
The Saudi Arabian city of Mecca is building the biggest clock in the world — a massive 1,983-foot tower sporting four timekeeping faces each 151 feet in diameter — with the goal of displacing Greenwich Mean Time as the world’s central time zone.
The clock will don text reading “in the Name of Allah.” Islamic scholars argue the clock ought to replace Greenwich Mean Time as the world standard, making Mecca “the true center of the earth.”
So….is Obama just another Kool-Aid drinker or ?????
The Mosque apologists seem to be stretching too far. Will they allow a church or temple in Saudi?
Probably not but then they do not have the freedoms that we enjoy.
Bruce O'H. says
The feminization of Western man is complete. When they choose to accept the slap of the bully without a whimper, they are lost.
The main function of the Constitution is to protect American citizens from the possibility of a Fed govt becoming tyrannical.
Over the years, the Extreme Left has whittled away at Constitutional rights, scorned the Constitution and the Founders, and called it a “living breathing” document to justify their disregard for it’s tenets.
Yet these same Extreme Leftists and their global political bedfellows, the muslim jihadists will beat anyone over the head with our own Constitution to achieve their goals. The Constitution used as a hammer to destroy the very freedoms that it was intended to protect.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact. By the arguments posted here, the U.S. would have been powerless to stop the building of a “Nazi Gentlemens Political Club” next to the Capital Building during WW2. After all, the Constitution guarantees the right to assemble.
There is irrefutable, factual evidence that Imam Rauf is solidly aligned with worldwide jihadists interests and causes. That he has substantial ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, whose main tenet is to destroy the West from within.
Though I admire on the one hand the attempted goodheartedness and fairness that American proponents for the mosque operate under. I can’t help but believe they have not researched the Imam in this instance to determine his motives. Either that, or they know, but are too cowardly to stand up to the barbarian tactics of the jihadists. Which only encourages the continued use of those tactics, as obviously, they have worked to cower their enemies.
Once again, as always, the Left sides against the best interests of America. Once again, ignoring all facts as irrelevant, they call anyone who cites such facts despicable names, and disparage their intelligence. As if only cowards have the enlightenment to understand all of the nuances of any issue. When in fact such smear tactics simply sublimate the true cause of their stand, mortal fear. I am not referring to Cdev in this assessment. I believe Cdevs motives are honest. I am referring to the Left, from the President to his lapdog media and the majority of appeasing, cowardly, Leftists in America.
The ones who undermine any attempt to protect us and our way of life, right down to our traditions and history. The ones who mock those who take umbrage at a blatant, in your face, insult. The cowardly internal enemies, the Left.
Bruce-you could not be more wrong. To just look at the world as left wing vs. right wing just signifies that one is correct and the other one isn’t. If you look with unbisased eyes you would see that the right of now does not resemble the right of yesterday in many ways. The right that I stand for believes in human rights and constitutional rights for all in our country. The Costitutions refers to We the People, not we the right or we the left. There is no reference to Christians, Mulim, Jew or any other religion, just freedom of religion…you can’t just choose to stand for some parts of the Contstitution and not others…namely the ones which give other people the same rights that you enjoy. If they build a Mosque, let them because is their right as much as it is yours.
Bruce O'H. says
Thank you, Cisco. Unfortunately, if you don’t realize what the Left is on the verge of accomplishing, you need to research and learn. The country, right now, is at a crossroads. We are either going to be a Constitutional, Capitalist country, or we are going to be socialist, with no Constitution. The Left is in an ideological war against Capitalism and Constitutionalism. There is no middle ground. We must all decide which system that we wish to live under and vote accordingly this Nov. If the Left’s political juggernaught is not lame ducked by their losing control of at least the House, they are positioned to “Fundamentally Change” our country for the next 100 years. Do you think they’re done taking over the Private Sector? Cap and Trade will give the Fed Govt control of the energy sector of the economy. They have the banks, auto, health care. With Amnesty they have the voters to negate the votes of Citizens who would vote against them. This is stuff that we used to read about happening in Communist countries. What do you think is going on? When I talk about the Left, I’m not referring to our good hearted neighbors who are liberals. I’m talking about the “ruling class” who have them fooled while they pull all power to themselves unconstitutionally. I’ve paid extremely close attention, one side or the other will prevail. I’m working towards the Constitutional victory.
I’m not replying about the mosque anymore. I’ve stated my opinion. That’s all it is…my opinion. But it is not changing.
cisco is correct you can not claim to respect the US Constitution and only selectively respect it. Either it is the law of the land all the time or you should use it as toliet paper!
Bruce O'H. says
It’s not a Constitutional issue. No one is denying their right to worship. What don’t you understand about not wanting the building THERE !! The Gov of New York has offered to find them another spot. They refused. Don’t you see it’s about the PLACEMENT of the mosque? Not whether they can have a mosque? Good Lord !!! AND, if every legal recourse is lost, they will get to build their flippin stab in the eye to America mosque.
Thank you all for the polite discourse. I truly have no more time for this.
Chris Cross says
Cdev and Cisco –
It’s not a question of religious practice since no one is suggesting the practice of Islam be restricted.
It’s perfectly fine for people of various religious and non-religious persuasions objecting to the location of a mosque within such close proximity to the location of the greatest attack on U.S. soil by a terrorist group that so happens to be an Islamist fringe group.
Freedom of religion is constitutionally guaranteed, however the intent of Cordoba House and Feisal Abdul Rauf is shrouded in mystery and people have a right to have concerns.
Chris if you noticed I never said it is a religious freedom case but a local zoning case and a property rights case. Does one have the right to use property they own and got zoned for their wishes.
Have all the concerns they want just realize their concerns are not going to stop this.
Bruce-I understand that you don’t want a Mosque there, but it does show that in America the law is bigger than our fears. Terrorists in the name of religion caused the horrific events of 9/11. It was not endorsed by any Islamic govt nor approved by any religious figure of any standing.
Terrorists caused it for their own missguided political, influence, and intent to gain influence.
Truly, the war of Iraq and Afganistan have done nothing to make us safer, but make us more paranoid of Muslims in general.
Chris Cross says
You don’t know the intent or affiliations of the Cordoba House proponents or Feisal Abdul Rauf do you?
Phil Dirt says
cisco said, “Terrorists in the name of religion caused the horrific events of 9/11. It was not endorsed by any Islamic govt nor approved by any religious figure of any standing.”
It was condemned by religious leaders – however, not by any of the main Islamic leaders.
Of course, nobody should read anything into that. That would be mean spirited and even worse than flying planeloads of innocent citizens into buildings full of innocent citizens.
Bruce O'H. says
Cisco, the entire muslim world danced in the streets when our citizens were jumping to their deaths. Of the 15 major conflicts in the world this minute, 13 are with muslims. There have been over 15000 terrorists attacks around the world since 9/11. They are beheading Christian girls on their way to school in Indonesia. Every major cleric of any standing is calling for the death of the Little and Big Satan. The 9/11 attack was done in the name of Allah. And there are numerous terror sponsoring States. What the hell planet are you talking about. Have you ever seen a beheading? I always imagined it to be by sword. No, You’re kneeling with your hands tied behind your back. A soldier of Allah grabs your hair, pulls your head back and uses a knife to slowly cut the throat. It’s amazing how much a live human having his throat cut sounds like a bleeting goat. You’d better forget about what the American media is telling you, they’re keeping you in the dark. Want to know what the real deal is with Islam? Have you ever read the Quran? I have. Here’s the “funny” part. You know all of that peaceful stuff in the beginning? Well it’s contradicted in later passages. Do you know what the Quran says about contradictions within it’s pages? It says that the later writing takes precedence. So if you wish to know what todays followers of Islam believe, go to the last chapter. You’ll be impressed. Or, stay in your make believe world and tell everybody else that they’re wrong.
Honestly, as stated by many others; the issue is not whether they have the right to build the mosque. Their completely obvious intent is to mock the U.S; and you simply quote “zoning laws” and the Constitution. The fact that this is the ONLY location they will consider, coupled with Imam’s background; leave very real doubts that they are attempting to foster some sort of misguided reconciliation. They are clearly not stupid, and the symbolism is too plain to ignore. Summarily, of course they have the RIGHT to build the mosque; but they clearly are putting up a facade of reconciliation to disguise their true motivation until their victory symbol is built. Your opinion is your own, but I agree with Bruce.
Well well well….is it a victory palace…or house of worship?
The answer is yes. One must think on this issue from the Islamic standpoint. The Islamic stance is decentralized and diverse. It ranges from this project being a Caliphate Headquarters to a house of worship.
The problem is that in Islam the religion takes precedent over state and rule does not necessarily need a state. This cannot be guaranteed not to happen in this case and as such the proximity to G-ZERO faces a real possibility of acquiring, if not already an intention as its original name was Cordoba House named after the Cordoba Caliphate, an identity as a victory palace. The Imam has been noted as making statements that are unclear as to his stance and he has not been forthcoming as to who finances and is behind this Mosque. Fundamentalists will look at it as a Victory Palace. It’s also just plain tackey. The problems this Mosque will cause are wide and varied.
Here is a link to a paper written before 9-11 that is a long read but a very good read if one is to understand the political and cultural mindset of Islamics, their religion/politics. Published by the International Studies Association, (info on them- http://http://www.isanet.org/ ), in 1998. The paper explores and describes the incompatibilities of Islam and western civilization and vica versa. What the paper is NOT, is a trash Islam piece.
Go Dagger ! !
Bruce-I don’t support terrorists or their tactics. As you probably know too, Christians, Jews and many others have used their religion to kill, intimidate and win influence through history.
Bruce O'H. says
Well, I didn’t live then, Cisco. Had I lived when Christians were slaughtering innocent people, I would not have liked them. I live now, when Christians are not, but moslims are.
Tell me, as I’ve just finished reading the atrocities perpetrated by muslims worldwide yesterday, and tomorrow, I’ll read of todays, should I just say to myself, “Hey, that’s OK, those damn Christians and Jews killed people centuries ago, too. I guess we’ll just let the moslems have their turn”. Fair is fair, huh?
Why don’t you look at England and France with the problems that they’re having with their moslem populations, figure out which are “moderate”, and contemplate the future for America as our moslim population reaches the demographic levels of Europe.
I also get a kick out of the , “well there have been Christian terrorists who have bombed abortion clinics’. As if a handful of fanatics over a 40 year span is the moral equivalent of a worldwide Jihad being waged as we speak.
Enjoy the warm glow that being an enlightened, tolerant person gives your ego. They still consider you an unbelieving infidel and would love to cut your throat. But hey, there was once this Christian who cut a guys throat…
Bruce O'H. says
Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser, a devout Muslim and the president and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy issued the following statement regarding remarks from President Obama on the proposed mosque and Islamic Center at Ground Zero:
“As an American Muslim whose family fled persecution in Syria and as someone who has stood in the face of some resistance to the building of many of our houses of worship in the U.S., I fully understand the value of standing for religious freedom in America. But President Obama’s statement about the Ground Zero mosque at last night’s White House Iftar dinner is the latest example of political correctness gone awry.
The President commented that:
“Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America.”
Yes, Mr. President, this is America and you have fundamentally misunderstood the stakes in this discussion and the sentiments of the American people. Instead, you have focused on the very issue that the Islamist propagandists wish you to– the narrative that Americans somehow need lectures about Islam, Muslims, and religious freedom.
Your message to Americans will be spun on Al Jazeera and by Islamists across the world that President Obama reassured a friendly global Muslim audience at the White House Ramadan dinner that he was going to remind Americans about the principles of religious freedom for Muslims since they seem to be trampling over those principles in the local dispute at Ground Zero in New York.
Mr. President this is not about religious freedom. It is about the importance of the World Trade Center site to the psyche of the American People. It is about a blatant attack on our sovereignty by people whose ideology ultimately demands the elimination of our way of life. While Imam Faisal Rauf may not share their violent tendencies he does seem to share a belief that Islamic structures are a political statement and even Ground Zero should be looked upon through the lens of political Islam and not a solely American one.
As a Muslim desperate to reform his faith, your remarks take us backwards from the day that my faith will come into modernity. I do not stand to eliminate Imam Rauf’s religious freedom; I stand to make sure that my children’s religious freedom will be determined by the liberty guaranteed in the American Constitution and not by clerics or leaders who are apologists for shar’iah law and will tell me what religious freedom is.
‘Park 51?, ‘The Cordoba House’ or whatever they are calling it today should not be built, not because it is not their right to do it – but because it is not right to do it.”Mr. President, your involvement in this issue is divisive not uniting. Your follow-up stating that ‘you will not speak to the wisdom of the construction of that mosque and center’ indicates a passive-aggressive meddling on your part that only marginalizes those Muslim and non-Muslim voices against it while pretending to understand both sides of the debate.
It’s not about what other nations or groups of people WOULD do. Its about what we as Americans SHOULD do.
We are a Nation who’s Constitution dictates that we allow people to worship as they see fit.
And you are right, most Islamic nations don’t allow that….but that is why we are AMERICA and they ARE NOT.
The whole point of the Constitition’s protections with regard to speech and religion are to protect the free speech and the religious beleifs of those who are in discord with the majority. Only “ugly” speech needs protection.
Like it or not, Satanism is legal. Santeria is legal. Even certain kinds of animal sacrifice are legal.
Those freedoms and that tolerance is what makes our country unique in the world.
As far as the world wide Muslim community turning a blind eye to the atrocities of a few- there may be some truth to that. And the Muslims don’t have the exclusve on that. (How’d theat whole Priest/ kid toucher scandal thing work out? Oh….that’s right…..)
Many are saying that the money to build the Mosque is being funneled from jihaddist sources. If that’s the case, I’ll go ahead and trust that some US law enforcement agencies with scary intials are checking it out. (and as one astute reader pointed out, YES I am assumeing all the zoning laws have been met as well). But I would guess that in NYC there are more than enough tax paying Muslims to build and support a Mosque.
And further if inside the house of worship the Imams are preaching and praying for the destruction of the USA, then so be it…that is their right as well.
Some one took the logical extreme and asked if we should allow the Nazis building a clubhouse on the same street as the US Capital- while its not TOTALLY analogous (NAZI is a political movement; Islam is a religion….but I’ll take the bait) YES. If they meet all the zoning requiements and can afford the real estate then YES they should be allowed to do so.
Again, thats what makes the US great. Freedom. Its a scary thing, which is why so few countries allow their citizens to have it.
Maybe these FACTS (and thats what they are) scare you or upset you. I would say then that you could use your right to assemble and legally protest and campaign for like minded legislators to make changes to the laws and even the Constitution…that is your right, and that’s how it works.
Phil Dirt says
Sorry, I’ve never been a member of the “Just because it’s legal it must be right” society.
Maynard, you had me until you compared a few people, oh, what the hell, lets say a thousand people that cover for a priest they know is molesting children (which I’d happily grant a death penalty for) with the tens of millions of Muslims who won’t lift a finger to stop murdering extremists all over the world… exceedingly poor analogy. For some reason Muslims are given a pass for not policing their own.
The mosque was never about legality… they have the RIGHT to build it even though they KNOW it isn’t RIGHT. The fact that they refuse to relocate when they know millions of Americans consider it an insult clearly states their real intentions. Look at a thing and ask “why does it do what it does?”, what is the motivation to continue in the face of so much criticism? I’d be thrilled if they couldn’t find anyone to build it.
Why should they have to relocate? It is the exact reason free speech zones are a bad idea. They bought the land. The land owner agreed to sell it and I am fairly certian the purpose was known at the sale time. Do you blame him? This is a land rights issue. They own it. The only people with the ability to stop it are the good people of New York City and they choose not to stop it. In fact they where very indifferent!
I never said they had to relocate… but when they claim they want to promote peace and understanding and they know tens if not hundreds of MILLIONS of Americans don’t like this idea and they insist on doing it any way I’m left wondering about their sincerity. I never said they didn’t have the right to build. I do say that while making the claim of promoting peace and understanding they will more likely set back much of the progress that has been made. They certainly have the right to do something that’s stupid, insensitive, and detrimental to their cause. What do I care.. have at it.
Bruce O'H. says
Well said, Maynard. I wondered when you would join the conversation. The bottom line problem with this case is that it was political from the start.
Everyone speaks of the muslims freedom of religion, therefore we must humble ourselves to them no matter their intentions.
OK. Then the Greek Orthodox Church that was in the vicinity, but was destroyed on 9/11 should then certainly be able to rebuild, agreed?
Religious freedom and all, right? Well they were stalled and finally denied. Reason: the planning board said it would look like a church, not like a warehouse, which they say it must for that commercial district. But they’re Christian, not the favored ones of the Left at all. So who gives a damn.
So, don’t give me that phony Constitution/religious rights argument from the Left. The Left cares nothing for those when it comes to Christians. We can’t even have a cross in the Mojave dessert that’s been there since the end of WW1. Even after a court ruled that it could stay, two days later it was stolen. The Left will accept nothing but their way, laws, constitution, et al, be damned.
As for being amendable to the extreme example that I gave. You obviously know nothing of Islam. Religion is only one facet of it.
Pardon me if I seem tense, I’m used to being around honorable men who will stand up for their country when it’s being pissed on.
Did the Church have a grandfather clause? I am asking not being smart. I simply want to know why the zoning board refused to let them rebuild the same sturcture?
Phil-what part of the Constitution is not right? The best way to keep a Mosque from being built there would be to put your greenbacks together and pay more for the site than the prospective owners would like to pay. Capitalism at work!!!!.
Bruce-You are now just rambling idiotic statements such as “Well, I didn’t live then”. I get it that you don’t support a Mosque near the site of 9/11. You still haven’t made a legal argument that these people don’t have a right to do so. By the way, I never said that I would support a Mosque there either, just that they have a right to worship as they see fit. This is part of what makes us better society that is tolerant, inclusive, and accepting of others. You right, it does give me a warm feeling to be an American!!!. God Bless the USA and our troops.
Bruce O'H. says
Well, I’ve refrained from any name calling. I’ve made it clear that I know they have every legal right. What’s so hard to understand about my being concerned about the butchers of my own time.
Sorry, you’re correct, I have been an idiot, I thought I could wake sleeping fools up.
enough said….you have the right to your opinion.
Off-topic, but what’s the real story behind Anita Marks leaving 105.7?
Maynard…do we allow that religion that is interwoven with politics…rules tribally…to set up government for its people(their claim) living in America? You cannot deny the fact the Islam is politics is governance is Islam. Maynerd…could it be that you have had a overdose of sand from your head being in the ground to long? Why do some pretend that this FACT is simply not the case?
Its real simple…as this Imam has many statements, and yes, lack of statements to his credit forcing one to associate him with fundamentalists verses centrists Islam…this mosque cannot do what it wants to do. The constitution’s protection of religious freedom has no relevance here as this is NOT about religion, rather the setting up of Caliphate (government) within our sovereign borders. On the other hand, the constitution does task the government with protecting us against foreign invaders.
I would ask that the president along with the rest of our government pull their heads out of the sand…drop the emotion and political correctness…and do their job and keep this invasion at bay!
GO DAGGER ! !!! !
Oh Maynard…one more thing……Good to see you on the Dagger.