Boy, 16, Charged With Running Over 12-Yr-Old Patterson Mill Student On School Lot

The Harford County Sheriff’s Office has filed charges against a 16-year-old boy who allegedly failed to stop the SUV he was driving and hit a 12-year-old student in the parking lot of Patterson Mill Middle/High School in Bel Air on Friday.

The female middle school student was treated and transported to Upper Chesapeake Medical Center for a broken leg, but questions remain regarding the boy and the vehicle he was driving during the accident.

The 16-year-old boy presumed to be the driver, who police confirmed is from Edgewood, is said to be a high school student at Patterson Mill and apparently attended school on Monday and Tuesday.

There are unconfirmed reports that the boy is the godson of a female Patterson Mill school custodian who lent him the vehicle he was driving during the accident. Also, unconfirmed reports indicate the boy either had only a driver’s permit, or is licensed, but did not have his license with him at the time of the incident.

Police charged the boy with failure to reduce speed to avoid a collision and failure to display license on demand.

According to police and reports from those on the scene, the boy was driving a green 1999 Ford Expedition from the loading dock area to the parking lot of the school. When exiting the loading dock area, a class was walking across to the fields. A teacher requested the boy stop the vehicle, but the truck continued and ran over the girl’s foot or leg.

Teri Kranefeld, Manager of Communications for Harford County Public Schools, said of the incident:

“Principal Thibeault sent out a message on Friday evening to all parents letting them know what we are legally allowed to release.”

“There are HIPAA privacy laws and this issue has become a personnel issue as well which we cannot discuss the details. However, please know that the school system will be thoroughly investigating this accident after the police have completed their investigation and release their findings to us.”

Sgt. David Betz, Public Information Officer for the Harford County Sheriff’s Office, provided the following accident report:


Victim: 12 y/o female from Bel Air

Driver of vehicle: 16 y/o male from Edgewood

Charged with: Failure to reduce speed to avoid a collision, failure to display license on demand

Synopsis: Male driving a green 99 Ford Expedition from the loading dock area to the parking lot. When exiting the loading dock area a class was walking across to the fields. Teacher requested the car to stop however the car continued and ran over the victim’s foot. Bel Air VFD responded, treated and transported to Upper Chesapeake.


  1. Concerned Citizen says

    So the kid is from Edgewood. Why is he a Patterson Mill student? How did this boundary exception occur? I understand that employees of schools can have their children attend out of boundary, but “godchildren?” That is a load of b.s. The principal and school board need to have an explanation for this instead of hiding behind HIPAA and “personnel records.” Smells like a cover up to me. How many other boundary exceptions are given for “godchildren” in the county. The answer should be zero. Seems not to be the case but what do you expect from the amatuers running the school board in Harford County. Pathetic.

  2. Judy says

    Boundary exceptions are given for all kinds of reasons and some of them actually make sense. Perhaps the questions people should (and probably have) ask are how many students are given exceptions at the school their children attend and why were the exceptions given. I wonder if there is a list. Are the exceptions handed out by the schools or by the county administration?

  3. Unknown says

    Does it really matter where the 16 yr. old is from and where he attends school? NO! The issue here is wreckless driving and perhaps driving without a license (if he did not have one). If the boy had a leaner’s permit then charges should also be filed against the owner of the vehicle. Would the incident be any better had the boy been from Bel Air and attended Patterson Mill middle/high with no boundary exception needed?? It seems as some of you are missing the real issue at hand.

  4. anonymous says

    Boundary exceptions occur often – some for legitimate reasons, others are granted to those who “work the system” (choosing a particular day care, using a relative’s address, etc) and avoid having their children go to particular schools. On the flip side, as a former teacher in the Route 40 corridor, we had a student who was expelled from a Bel Air school. He was sent to our school due to his behavior. This student was one of the most referred/suspended students in our school, yet for some reason never lost his boundary exception! You may be surprised how many students are attending Patterson Mill on boundary exceptions

  5. anonymous says

    Patterson Mill Middle and High has 68 boundary exceptions attending thier schools combined and 21 have left the school for a net total of 47 extra students.

    See 1st link in post 4

  6. Local Guy says

    Unknown, of course it matters. These districts were specifically drawn to keep Edgewood kids out.

  7. RJ says

    Who drew the boundaries? PMMHS isn’t that big and they took kids out of Fallston to fill Bel Air (which is at capacity and Fallston is at about 80%).

    How many districted Edgewood kids are boundary exceptions or attending Harford Tech? How many HCPS employees are taking their kids out of Edgewood and sending them elsewhere. Kind of hypocritical isn’t it?

  8. Cindy says

    Daycare used to be an acceptable reason for a boundary exception, even if the receiving school was overcrowded.That policy was subject to abuse by commercial day care providers who set up shop in a school district and sent all of their kids to one school, regardless of where the students lived. It was practical for the daycare provider, but a problem if the school was already over capacity.

    The problem came to a head at Ring Factory Elementary several years ago when music and art classrooms were in danger of being converted to classrooms because of overcrowding almost entirely due to boundary exceptions. Several of us PTA-types brought the issue to the attention of the school board. Our position was that boundary exceptions were fine as long as the receiving school was not overcrowded. A new policy was adopted including a limit to daycare boundary exceptions if a school was over 95% of capacity.

    The new policy included the exemption for HCPS staff. Staff do not have to provide a reason to get a boundary exception, it is considered a benefit of employment.

    I supported the new policy for staff at the time and still do. But there is a potential problem brewing at Patterson Mill, similar to the one at Ring Factory. It would make sense to deal with it now and I have discussed it with senior staff, but I’m told it’s unlikely to be dealt with until the new superintendent takes the reins.

  9. Phil Dirt says

    I strongly disagree with boundary exceptions for HCPS staff. As I wrote in response to the article “Middle School Student Hit By Vehicle Driven By High School Student At Patterson Mill”: Gee, if any HCPS employee can send their kid to any school they want, than anyone who has a financial interest in HCPS should have the same privilege. (for those who don’t get it – that would be the Harford County taxpayers)

  10. Elaine says

    After looking at Larry’s post about the elementary school, I am stunned because the HCPS said they didn’t want to look at Boundary Exceptions this year even though it is a problem. I thought it was because of having an Interim Superintendent. They did though issue this recommendation about the timetable for the two schools after they have now pushed back opening up the first one. They wouldn’t deal with this issue even though they have a policy but they will push opening 2 elementary schools even when there apparently isn’t a need for one just yet. Patterson MIddle is overcrowded and they have built all of this high schoool capacity so where are the kids going to middle school. Who is paying for all of these schools and the road improvements to Route 22?

  11. Patterson Mill parent says

    It’s my understanding from listening to presentations at PTA meetings and speaking with the administration that Patterson Mill has the highest number of boundary exceptions in the county, and a large percentage of them are HCPS employees taking advantage of the benefit provided to them. I’m okay with a teacher at a particular school being allowed to have their child with them, for convenience, but why should a teacher who teaches in another part of the county be allowed to send their child anywhere else besides where they teach and/or their own neighborhood school? The policy as it stands invites abuse by HCPS employees and allows them to fill the highest performing schools with their own kids, to the detriment of neighborhood children when the schools are crowded.

  12. Judy says

    The link in post #4 has boundary exceptions per school and how many are employee related. C. Milton has the most, but it is much larger than PMS. I wouldn’t think anyone would send a child to Patterson Mill based on performance–there isn’t any yet. And my kid is districted for PMS so somebody can have that spot.

  13. Meghan says

    Maybe the question is why is this kid at school when he is UNDER INVESTIGATION by police, and why does the person get to laugh about what happened and brag how hes gonna get away with the crime when the 12 yr olds brother is sitting right next to him in class??? I go to Patterson Mill and Im forced to be in the same classroom with the 16 yr old every day. I want to know why this person tried to drive away when the little girl is laying in the road?! Please someone bring justice to this case because theres a large grey area that no one gets to know about. This shouldnt ever happen again!

  14. Karen says

    I agree with the people who are asking why the boundary exception is an issue here. The student and his godmother have poor judgment no matter where they are supposed to be going to school or working. I am sure the student would be doing the same things in Edgewood. It does bring into question why students are allowed to have boundary exceptions just because their godmother works at the school. Certainly the student no longer requires DAY CARE so something must have been fabricated to get him into the same school. It brings up the question of honesty, lying on applications etc. Not having a license, trying to leave the scene, not listening to a teacher telling him to stop, the godmother giving him the keys to her car and knowing about his driving status, are all significant in and of themselves. Maybe not having a license until he is over 21, holding the godmother and the student responsible for all medical, physical therapy, settlement of pain and injury, and all other costs may be the answer. Hold them both accountable for what they have done. AND SHIP HIM BACK TO THE SCHOOL DISTRICT HE SHOULD BE GOING TO WHETHER IT IS EDGEWOOD OR FALLSTON! Sounds like they think that rules of any kind do not apply to them.

  15. J says

    Apparently it is not against school rules to run over a middle school student in the parking lot. However, Meghan, you better watch out what you say or you may get suspended. Apparently it IS against school rules to express your displeasure with the lack of school punishment or your disgust at the boy’s bragging during class (read, you CAN’T disagree with Joe Collins or Wayne Thibeault!!!). I have heard of 2 students being suspended for this and at least 1 student is bringing harassment charges against Collins.

    I do know first-hand that the schools will protect their own and this will be “investigated” by someone at the Board who won’t even bother to talk to the student being harassed by the administrator.

    Does anyone know if there is any way to find out how many harassment charges have been filed against PMS administrators?

    BTW, the car owner’s insurance is covering the medical care at least for now. So far it has covered her surgery and hospital stay.

  16. RJ says

    J : Are you saying that 2 students got suspended because they went and complained about this kid bragging in class? You have got to be kidding me. I have also heard there is little or no remorse from the student but I will tell my kid to keep it quiet. I wish that parent would come to a Board meeting and talk about this because this is truly unacceptable.

  17. J says

    This is what the students (who claim to be suspended) passed on to my son this weekend. Of course I wasn’t there so I don’t know first-hand. I’m also assuming the students got a bit “vocal” with Joe Collins, which is understandable.

    I’m still trying to figure out why nobody is supervising before and after school in the parking lot like they do at Bel Air High and every other high school I have heard of.

  18. Cdev says

    How do you mean vocal? Like yelling at an adult and screaming obscenities. I would think the suspension may be for disrespect to an adult.

  19. J says

    Again, I wasn’t there. I stated that I was ASSUMING the high school student was vocal with Joe Collins, but that was just an assumption on my part. I know she was very upset after coming out of a class with Kiki and MAY have gotten carried away.

    But, what is more “wrong”? Saying something inappropriate to an adult or running over a kid in the parking lot, laughing about it, and then bragging how you got away with this without getting in trouble from the school?

    This was handled poorly, as many things are at Patterson Mill–in my personal experience. The Patterson Mill administration treats the students poorly. They are condescending and rude, yet expect the students to respect them? I don’t respect them—-I can’t imagine how anyone expects a 16 year old to respect them. No, I am not a Thibeault-basher. I am a realist who has known him for almost 20 years and have excellent reasons for disliking him and his sidekick, Joe Collins.

  20. Cdev says

    It is not which is “more wrong”

    2 Wrongs do not make a right!

    It is also not the administrations place to discuss with any other student the disiplinary actions of another student. This is not a public lynching. FERPA expressly forbids the publicizing of this. How would you like it if your childs report card was publicly released on the internet?

  21. V says

    cdev, its obvious that you’re either a pmill administrator or a teacher that supports Joe Collins and Wayne Thibeult, because your being blind to the fact that the adults were wrong in this situation and still are. Joe Collins has done many questionable things to students and treated them in an unacceptable matter if they dont do everything exactly to his liking. He gives no respect to students and is extremely rude and condescending and raises his voice to children in his office as if they’re his kids and when they protest his childish behaviour he runs into his office to call their parents and tell them his version of “the truth” which is nothing but half truths with so much holes you could compare it to swiss cheese. of course a child would get vocal and scream at an adult who is abusing their power, being rude, and giving no respect while trying to run the school like a dictator. and there is a degree of which is more wrong. two wrongs don’t make a right is an invalid statement. how is it a child can be suspended for being mad an an administrator who doesn’t do his job or does it poorly and he/she gets suspended, but another child can run over an even younger child and brag about how he can get away with it because joe collins is so gullible? if two wrongs dont make a right and theres no “more wrong”, then you’re basically stating that yelling at an administrator is on the same level as running over a young child. and why is it that there have been complaints about this child who ran over the little girl previously? my daughter is one of many girls who had been molested by this boy “Ki Ki” and that was all the way back in december, but of course, instead of him being expelled, he pulled a fast one on joe collins just like he is now and hes bragging about his latest feat. I’m definitely not letting my daughter go to 9th grade here next year, and even if she stays, im giving her pepper spray to keep that molestor at bay. I’m praying that this child actuallly gets a punishment for the pain he has inflicted on others without care

  22. Patrick says

    Finally someone sees the truth. Thank you V. My daughter is another female at Patterson Mill that has also has had to deal with “kiki” many times. She claimed she was afraid and that she felt as though joe collins would let kiki”go as he did in December with the incident with V’s daughter. I asked her to report it reguardless and just as she thought kiki was freed of all accusations. There must be a deal between collins and kiki, otherwise why would so many of the same “accusations” go ignored. Once again he has “alledgedly” committed another crime and is aloud to stay in school with the 12 yr olds brother and my daughter and he young friends. I to have another daughter and a son. I refuse to let them go to Patterson Mill. Without a 10 ft screen, zoomed in with the volume turned up to the max of what kiki and his sidekick jones do, apparently it never happened and it goes ignored. In my 34 yrs of being a teacher, I have never seen such crimes go ignored or unpunished. These people and this school are a disgrace to our society.

  23. Patrick says

    Finally someone sees the truth. Thank you V. My daughter is another female at Patterson Mill that has also has had to deal with “kiki” many times. She claimed she was afraid and that she felt as though joe collins would let kiki”go as he did in December with the incident with V’s daughter. I asked her to report it reguardless and just as she thought kiki was freed of all accusations. There must be a deal between collins and kiki, otherwise why would so many of the same “accusations” go ignored. Once again he has “alledgedly” committed another crime and is aloud to stay in school with the 12 yr olds brother and my daughter and heryoung friends. I to have another daughter and a son. I refuse to let them go to Patterson Mill. Without a 10 ft screen, zoomed in with the volume turned up to the max of what kiki and his sidekick jones do, apparently it never happened and it goes ignored. In my 34 yrs of being a teacher, I have never seen such crimes go ignored or unpunished. These people and this school are a disgrace to our society.

  24. J says

    If you have specific issues with the administration (I had the same), I suggest you document them in writing and send them to the Director of Secondary Education, David Volrath. He will probably ignore them, but you will have a record of issues with the administration and can use that as your rationale for a boundary exception. It comes up as Reason D–other–if you are looking at the statistics for the school. You can do a boundary exception now–the process started in March. I’m waiting for Thibeault to retire, but Joe Collins told me he wants the principal job.

  25. Cdev says

    I am not a teacher/principal or “supporter” of this group.

    It is not the place of any child to discuss the discipline of another child. I do not know “KiKi” from a hole in the ground and do not care to. Do you know for a fact there has been no punishment and none planned or are you assuming it because the kid is still in school? Maybe he is Spec. Ed. and the hands are tied by IDEA? I don’t know what happened I just suggested a plausible theory based on what was said. Either way it is not appropriate to discuss someone eles educational record with another student. It is further more not appropriate to yell scream or be abusive to the person who is not going to discuss that.

    Additionally your more wrong logic is flawed as the “angry student” is not being charged with a crime but the “bad driver” is. He will have his day in court and then probably a nice place in a juvie center which will not be Patterson Mill.

    Further more if your daughter has been “molested” by “KiKi” maybe you should get the police involved. Principals can not expell they simply send them to the superintendents office for further punishment the superintendent or thier designee decides what happens from there.

  26. Larry says

    The bottom line is that students deserve to feel safe at school. If that isn’t the case, then there is still work to be done by all toward that goal.

  27. Kate says

    I am still trying to figure out what is going on at PMMHS. I am not defending vice prinicpal’s actions, but the problem is with the PRINCIPAL. If he was doing his job this wouldn’t be going on. Who is in charge anyway? The vice principal works for the prinicpal – not the other way around. Think how difficult that must be in a school system where “following orders” is what gets you promoted.

    If a student is being harassed, there is a form that can be completed that is generated by the Maryland State Department of Education. If anyone on here wants a link, I will provide it. Also if there are criminal violations occuring, police should be called. I am outraged by this whole incident myself and I wish many of these parents would attend PTA meetings and complain to the Board of Education publicly. They (along with HCPS administration) really need to hear what is going on because you know they aren’t hearing it from the school. Also, it would be in the paper and Board meetings are on television. Again, every other school I have been in the PRNICIPAL is in charge but if you have been following events at this school, he initiates a lot of actions and then makes other people (teachers, staff, parents) clean up his mess.

  28. V says

    ok cdev, your suggestion is flawed because “ki ki” is not a special ed student first off. and secondly, he was the driver of the vehicle and ignored the order to slow down/ stop. he knew exactly what he was doing and furthermore, found his actions to be amusing. he even stated openly about how easy it is to get away with aything he does at the school because all he has to do is deny what he does and pretend to be sorry and mr.collins is off his back. the angry child that got suspended is a boy whos mother I’ve know for quite sometime and i know exactly what happens to him when joe collins calls him down to the office. this boy has been punished with suspensions more than almost everybody in the school and has done nothing as serious as others around him, but because he refuses to have respect for an administrator that is crooked, he is unjustly punished and the reasons for his suspensions are warped and twisted into things they’re not by “joe collins”. the boy that is suspended is no bad seed and hasnt run anybody over or molested any girls but of course with “joe” as his administrator he is punished again. kinda sad though. in pmill you can be punished and kicked out of school for the silliest things. the same boy was kicked out just before this latest suspension for not giving “joe” his ipod that he wasnt even listening to. he refused to give the headfones up obviously because he was doing nothing wrong and he wasnt listening to them and “joe” ignored other people listening to their ipods to come and yell at this specific child. he provoked the boy by putting his hands on him which he denies still as of today. the boy refused and walked to class. minutes later (joe collins) ran in the class and had a tug of war with him and took his books and ran off screaming to go to the office which trned into a 5 day suspension which affected this child academically. so how is it he takes this kind of action for headfones but does nothing for such a caniving malicious student such as this “ki ki” boy? he can molest people and run them over and collins says not a word. In joe collins eyes running over a child or molesting girls are not grounds for suspension but not giving up an ipod is.

    guess if my daughter gets in trouble with an ipod i should just tell her to run someone over so joe collins will leave her alone and not suspend her. and when i say run someone over i mean she can only run over joe collins or the “prinicipal” of this “lovely” school.

    this expression is obviously sarcasm . i wouldnt want anybody to be run over and have to suffer the pain which some of us find to be funny (ki ki). its just showing how students at this school along with parents feel about this situation.

    and again, hopefully this ki ki is brought to justice for what he’s done, because if he touches my daughter again I’ll be there so he can answer to me. not some administrator who picks and chooses when he wants to do his job

  29. V says

    and thank you kate. i’d love that link to the harassment form please. your an angel from heaven. thank you

  30. vietnam vet says

    Sound’s to me like this. Joe collin’s need ‘s a serious back ground check.

  31. Patrick says

    Thank you Larry. I will be completing this form for my daughters against the student “KIKI” and the “administrator” Joe Collins.

  32. V says

    thank you Larry. I hope this form will help me in ensuring safety for kids who go to this school.
    How long willl it take for action to be taken against the offenders when i fill this out? does anyone know?

  33. Cdev says

    So V you have seen “Ki Ki’s” Cum. folder? You obviously know everything first hand from your third hand source.

    Look I do not know the specifics except what you say. I find it hard to believe that with as much pub as this got that unless there was a reason that tied there hands to keep him there despite what he says to anyone Pat Skebeck herself would have had him removed!

    Again though what ever wrong someone else has done refusing to follwo the direction of an administrator and hand over your i-pod that does not belong at school when asked is insubordination. I do not care how many other people had them other people’s conduct does not excuse yours. Try telling the cop that pulls you over the other people where speeding. Does that work? No! You got caught deal with it and if you get rude and disrespectful the cop will make sure he finds other things wrong to put on the ticket. Same thing.

    You talk about my objectivity. It sounds like someone has a personal Vendetta (V for Vendetta, Hey) against the admin at PM.

  34. V says

    i know your not saying my child is a third hand source. you expect me to not know what goes on when my child sits in class with this student and is aware of what he does? And i know the child who got suspended and his parents so yea, i do think thats a valuable source. the kids can listen to their ipods in the morning hence why they have them at school. and that cop example still isnt making sense to me since the administraor here ignored others doing the same thing he was accusing another of and he only punished the one student that raises objection to him. the kid wasnt “speeding” down the hallway. if you read what i wrote youd notice that the boy wasnt listening to his ipod. to my knowledge he didnt even have it out in plain sight. and as long as were critiquing names on this page, why is yours Cdev? you say your not a pmill administrator or supporter of these adults but your name is clearly the same name as one of the programs that my daughter uses in pmill for her computer programming class. and i dont know if you have kids, but I’m guessing no, because if you did, you’d know that any parent would have a “vendetta” against adults that they trusted to keep their kids safe who are doing otherwise

  35. V says

    and by the way, maybe you should stop and think that my name starts with a “V”. jesus

  36. Patrick says

    Cdev, you need to stop putting senseless comments on this page. Your comparison of getting pulled over by a cop is not “the same!” You can not compare children being sexually assaulted and being hit by cars to simply being pulled over by a cop for speeding! Collins is punishing students for the wrong reasons. Whether or not the ipod was in use, the student was still suspended while “kiki” continued to stay in school after what he had “allegedly” done to many felmales and is still present in school while under investigation and laughing about getting away with harming yet ANOTHER student! I’m not sure whether you’re a parent but I’m assuming not and that you wont be anytime soon with your opinions stated above. Any normal human being, especially a parent, would not only be disgusted but furiated about the crimes being committed and ignored at this “school.” Your statements are not only wrong but where is your sympathy? I am a parent and I want the best and only the best for my children, which means I want them to be safe. I dont want to have to worry every day whether or not my child will be hit by a car or sexually harrassed by these students. Police shouldnt have to be involved with issues that should have already been handled BY THE SCHOOL! I see no change with this “administration” so yes, my children will be attending Bel Air High School where my wife and I received a commendable education in a healthy and safe environment. If thats what its going to take to get these “boys” what they deserve then I will involve the authorities. Your aversive and detestable comments need to stop.

  37. HCParent says

    Wow, my child attends a different HC High school and I can tell you reading these posts about the administration and how harassment is handled (or not) and the comment about Mr. Volrath’s office probably ignoring a complaint (so true) is stunning.

    It describes precisely what my experience has been with another school’s administration. Same inconsistency of discipline, same lack of handling repeated harassment. Same lack of respect from the administration for students OR parents.

    A word of advice about using the harassment reports – fill them out on your child’s behalf, hand deliver them to the school and follow up to make sure the report was actually filed. When the student reports directly to an administrator, it seems the offical report that gets tracked never gets filed.

    It is completely frustrating to know that this is happening to other families and other schools. And that I know from personal experience that nothing changes, no matter how far you raise the issue.

  38. Confused says

    When is anyone going to understand that HCPS does not care about our children in their school sytem. They are out for themselves and their own spin on things. Most of the administration in all of the schools are as crooked as they can be, and they do hold “personal” vendettas against students and do things to them just because they deem fit, even without probable cause. You can try and report the administration to the powers to be at HCPS but they just brush you off. They pretend to listen to what you have to say, and then they do absolutely nothing about it. We, as parents of students in HCPS, need to stand up to them and to the board and let them know of our disgust with their school system. Until we all stand together to make the changes, nothing will ever change and principals and vice principals will still feel that can say and do what they please without any reprecussions. Voice in numbers works – one person cannot stand alone and fight the battle.

  39. HCParent says

    Amen Confused. The challenge is finding a forum for dissatisfied parents who are ready to speak out. The administration is good at making families feel that its “them” and they are the only ones having problems. Its been my experience that PTA’s are not a great forum for this.

  40. Confused says

    HCParent – it is good to know that there are others out there who feel the way I do. Yes, PTA’s are of no help – but only because they really have no power or authority over anything in the schools. They are only in schools so they can use the parent volunteers. I belong to the PTA’s of the schools that both of my children attend, and always will be just to show them that I support them, but as for really getting anything done about the administration – their hands are tied as well.

  41. Kate says

    How about the Parent Coalition of Harford County with chapters in each school? I have been saying all along parents need an opportunity to speak freely and unfortunately at PTA meetings, the Principal is usually there.

    There is a search on for a new superintendent and even though there are limited “stakeholders” interviewing or talking to these people, I would urge parents to tell the Board of Education what they want. Send them a letter and send it here or to another outlet. Parents can have very different agendas than teachers and/or administrators. I heard someone use the phrase “Educational Industrial Complex” to describe what our system has become… not so far from the truth.

  42. Cdev says

    V Funny my initials happen to be Cdev and yes I do have kids! You are relaying third hand informastion as YOU where not there.

    Patrick so let me get this straight only people critical of the school system are allowed to post here? The rest of us can not? Are we not in the USA where the first ammendment applies; or are you the Gustapo. I have not personally attacked anyone.

    I was not comparing the two incidents you name to the speeding. I was comparing the I-pod to the speeding. No one answered my question…did anyone call the Sherrif about the Sexual Assualt? If you did not call the sherrif what do you expect the school to do about it? Did it occur at school? If not there is not much they can do about it. I also notice you call it sexual assult and sexual harrassment. There is a BIG difference (not that either are acceptable). Which one is it? I am not saying this kid is good, he may be satan himself but he still has rights. Again his dicipline is not your buisness the Federal Education Records Protection Act keeps the school from discussing his situation with you.

    Kate….am I to understand you are not whilling to tell the principal what you think face to face and want a forum to talk about them behind their back and complain about them not responding. Some people forget that the PTA is not just parents. My child’s school has good PTA participation with the T part as well! Some of you want a PA only!

    Further more you all had an opportunity in January and continued opportunity to tell a nuetral party what you valued in a superintendent. That criteria was factored in who they recomended as finalist from the pool. If you want to jump in now send in your comments but don’t expect them to have the same weight as those who offered there thoughts in January & February when requested!

    My two cents but I am sure I will be called thoughtless, insensitive, pointless and aversive!

  43. Confused says

    I have been involved in three schools in Harford County so far. I have actively belonged to each PTA, and let me assure you, in each school it has been the parents ONLY actively involved. A teacher one has never attended a meeting. The principal does occasionally attend a meeting. I can’t speak for Kate, but I have told the principals face to face when something is wrong and have just been blown off of more than one occasion. I have been told what I want to hear so I dont question them, but nothing is ever done about it. What is trying to be said is that there needs to be someone we can go to when the principals of the school just blows us off and does not solve the problem. As for me, I did reply in regards to what I wanted in a Superintendent – but do I really think that just my opinion matters – no. And that is why many people dont say anything because they dont feel their feelings will be taken into consideration. Which takes me back to my voice in numbers. Let’s face it, the school board has a way of doing its own thing, even after listening and listening to parents say no, they do it anyway.

  44. Cdev says

    Confused I see your point and I am sure that not every PTA or school is the same. Do you imagine that teachers feel welcome when the PTA meeting degrads into a personal attack session? The school which I see teachers actively involved in makes it clear that PTA meetings are not the time for personal attacks. Sometimes I admit the BOE does seem to do it’s own thing. On other occasions they have attemppted to do the right thing for the whole county to simply get crap from a vocal group who threw a fit like a 2 yearold until they got their way. Specifically HS redistricting and the decision of where to build. The decision of where to build belongs by law to the BOE. It was usurped by our county council. I think most parents at the most affected schools do not care as long as they get a school ASAP!

    The HS redistricting I remember being at the mall and got approached to sign a petition to keep a certian area attending Fallston. When I said no I got asked why and I explained that I felt it was the best decision. It was then suggested I sign “to keep the Joppatowne Trash out of such a good school.” I then told them that I know many fine people in Joppatowne and that I definatley was not signing it. Still people from that area fussed until they got what they wanted!

  45. Realist says

    To say that all administrators within the county are “crooked” and hold “vendettas against students” is a ridiculous comment. SURE, there are some. But come on…there are some very good administrators in this county.

    I do agree, however, that their is a disconnect between many administrators and parents. It goes both ways….some administrators don’t take parent concerns seriously. However, some parents refuse to listen to the concerns of the administration when their children are in the wrong.

    Bottoms line…the entire situation that started this thread is is sad and sounds to me if it was handled poorly. But let’s not throw the entire HCPS administration under the bus because one or two in particular seem to have acted with poor judgment.

  46. Realist says

    Cdev – I see your point. I can remember many, many moons ago when I would attend PTA meetings. Many would turn into “guess what this teacher said,” or “teacher X assigns too much homework,” etc. What teacher in their right mind would want to attend that mess?

  47. anonymous says

    This is no longer “third hand” I am one of the many girls “kiki” has sexually assaulted, harrassed whatever you want to call it, “kiki” has done it all. Cdev, I’m not exactly sure what your intentions are with your comments and yes you do have the right to speak but you must remember this is a very sensitive topic and I was hurt by what you said. You are also third hand like Patrick and V but they have kids at this school that I know very well, therefore I understand where they’re coming from. Patrick and V are right in every aspect. Their comments are 100% true about what “kiki” and Joe Collins do around the school and get away with. Because I have experienced and witnessed these “accusations” first hand, I can tell you they are completely truth. Yes, I did talk to Joe Collins and our student resource OFFICER and yes obviously it happened at school otherwise why would I attempt to depend on Joe Collins for any kind of help? They said it couldn’t be proven therefore nothing was done. I am confused though of how so many girls had the same complaints about this boy and somehow they were continuously ignored. As for the young girl being hit, I was there in the classroom with “kiki” when he stated how “easy it was to get away with stuff at this school. All you have to do is kiss Collins a**.” He also stated that it was “the dumb girls fault for running out in front of HIS car.” I understand completely why the other student ran out of class crying, she is also a victim of sexual harrassment from “kiki” and we have discussed many times what to do since we are in the same situation. Bottom line is that the “administration” at my school doesnt protect their kids like they’re suppose to. I for sure thought when we reported this incident to the student resource officer at Pmill that he would take care of this as he has sworn to “serve and protect.” I am confused and extremely effected emotionally by this whole situation. Thank you Larry for the link, I will try to fill the form out and see what happens. This will be my last shot. HCparent, please tell me, are you referring to C. Milton Wright or Joppatowne?

  48. Cdev says

    anon. I am apt to believe you as YOU actually claim to have heard him say it. Not what your friend said his son said that some girl said! I am sorry you have had to endure. Might I suggest going over the SRO and go to the Harford County Sherrif. If you remember the time and date and where in the building it happened they can bring up the video footage. While I am not female and have not been the victim of sexual assult or harrassment (realaize there is a huge difference so you should stop using them interchangably) I empathize with your situation but if you want to claim it is very sensitive you should be mad at the people who brought them up on a message board and posted them. You can be hurt by my comments or offended and I am sorry if they offend you as you are a real victim. That said you may want to go to the State’s Attorney with that information (“kiki’s” comments) that kind of stuff may be helpful in them making their case.

  49. MikeWagner says

    To the girl above: I know all too well how you feel…. I used to go to Patterson Mill last year, but I was lucky enough to get my boundary exception accepted. Part of me wishes I was still there to help you and others in your situation help fight these injustices. The school, if it’s even deserving of such a title, is an abomination to Maryland. While I went to P-Mill I was harassed by my math teacher, Wayne Thibeault, and Joe Collins. I tried settling the math teacher issue peacefully without any major conflict but Joe Collins negated my cry for help, saying, “We only hired the most qualified teachers. There is no way you could have been harassed.”
    He never looked into the matter despite many complaints from students and parents.
    Later in the year I was actually accused of “hacking the computer system” and stealing peoples’ passwords. This was obviously not true as I was only 16 at the time, and there was absolutely no way I knew how to do that. I probably never will be that talented with computers.
    After hearing about this accusation, I went after school on my own time to talk to good ole’ Wayne. I explained to him that this accusation was silly and was false and that it was really stressing my parents out. My family didn’t need any more stress since my dog had just died :( and my mom had just received her breast cancer diagnosis. Thibeault literally laughed, and said, “What? Are you going to start singing one of those old sad ‘My dog died’ country songs too?”

    He is a terrible person.

  50. RJ says

    Wow… is all I can say about that previous post. What did the superintendent do about this? Nothing and that is the problem.

  51. MikeWagner says

    Superintendent? It was dismissed as unfounded at a much lower level after a very thorough investigation of Thibeault and Collins’ opinions. They forgot to talk to me. However, I did get my boundary exception approved because of it.

  52. Kate says

    CDEV it is difficult to have a discussion at a PTA meeting when the principal interupts and personally attacks people not the other way around. Oh and lies to them too about all kinds of things but that’s a whole other issue. Been a PTA officer and involved with the PTA for 14+ years and never had an issue until now. I have talked face to face numerous times to no avail and why should I waste my time talking to someone who flagrantly lies. This site could be filled with stories from frustrated people.

    You see a pattern here… it’s not the parents and it’s not the kids.

  53. Parent, Taxpayer, and Businessman says

    CDEV: We greatly appreciate your posts. But if I may, I would respectfully recommend three things for your future posts:

    1) Factual Accuracy
    2) Logic
    3) Spell Check

    One more thing. I’ve noticed, In some of your posts on other stories, that you use the pronoun “we” while referencing HCPS (if I’ve read it correctly). Can we assume that you are an employee of HCPS? If you are an HCPS employee, many of your posts are during the hours of, what I would assume is, your workday. Is this part of your paid duties, on our dime, or are you just doing it instead of your paid duties; or do your paid duties allow you plenty of free time to post (which raises other questions of course)?


  54. Kate says

    Another issue I meant to raise about the PTA and teachers had to do with representation. The Parents don’t have a Union but the Teachers sure do. We are the only group in the educational process that has little or no power not even the authority to elect the BOE who makes policy decisions that directly effect our children. I agree that parents are a big part of the educational process but if you took the same group of kids and put them in a school with marginal teachers the outcome would be quite different from one where the teachers were much better. Many of the inequities in the school system are because of that and then the issue of the principal and who hires them comes into play. It can perpetuate a vicious cycle and it is very difficult to get rid of the bad ones.

    The good teachers know who they are and they know who the bad ones are too. Parents who are involved with their children’s education also know the difference. I have enormous respect and admiration for the teachers that do an outstanding job and I usually let them know it as do my kids. There are several “administrators” (Teacher Mentors, Instructional Facilitator, Master Teacher) in the school themselves supposedly dealing with substandard teachers. I think Harford County would be better served having better teachers in the classroom working with students than being administrators but again that is another story.

  55. Realist says

    Just curious…how did a discussion about a hideous incident turn into teacher bashing? Teachers did not run over a child. Teachers did not protect the guilty party involved. Teachers work hard. They are just as handcuffed in the process as parents are. My money says that if teachers were actually allowed to teach, without restrictions placed upon them by the powers that be, then results would bear much more fruit. Also, if teachers could spend time with those who actually wanted to learn, we would see greater results. But parents would never allow that. Those who are parents of discipline problems would never agree to that. But I am falling victim to the same issue with which I began my post…this has nothing to do with the incident in question.

  56. Concerned Patterson Mill Parent says

    Realist: Excellent points.
    Having said that, I’d like to say something else that is not directly related to the incident in question, but is an undercurrent of the aftermath:

    There is a basic and serious problem at Patterson Mill that I have never experienced at the three other HCPS schools that my children have attended. And I will try to be constructive here. I will also preface my comments by acknowledging that it’s very difficult to run a school; and by saying that we want things to work and will do whatever is required of us to be a part of the solution. Here’s the problem:

    The principal simply does not level with the students or the parents. Period. I have personal experience with his gross misrepresentations (I’m being kind here) and he knew they were misrepresentations at the time. Many, many others have related similar experiences to me. I’m sorry to be so stark here, but it must be said.
    In my opinion, Mr. Thibeault so fervently wants to succeed (and to be seen as a success), that he is incapable of indulging ANY discussion of anything that may reflect poorly on him or the school. This results in, among other things:

    – Decisions that often place his and the school’s image above the interests of the stakeholders.
    – Utter misrepresentations or denials of a problem/issue, which, quite often, extremely delays or prevents a solution.
    – Attempts to drown out or intimidate dissent.
    – Staffing decisions that value allegiance over qualifications.
    – A core coalition of his staff and supporters who are sycophantic to him, and bullying and derisive to his detractors. This only serves to damper any meaningful dialogue or collaboration with the parents or students.
    – A destructive and alarming lack of trust or collaboration.

    It must be said that there seem to be a small number of parents who greatly resent the scrutiny of Mr. Thibeault, but not many. But regardless of that, we have a huge problem here. And the parents and students that I speak to, that have a problem, have not had this issue or problem with the other principals that we have dealt with. The three other HCPS principals that I personally have had the pleasure of working with over the years have been honest and professional and I admire them greatly. Hats off to HCPS for allowing them to rise to their positions.

    I never thought I would say this, but we have discussed moving within the county, or a boundary exception, or private school. And we have been very involved and constructive parents for over 10 years. It’s very sad.

    This is a problem that cannot be ignored any longer. But this is also a problem that can be fixed. Wayne can fix it. It all comes down to starting a completely honest dialogue, now. He certainly has the passion and the energy that would enable him to create a dynamic and positive school environment. But he needs to acknowledge that it’s a partnership (a two-way street) and earn our trust back. He doesn’t have to agree with us every time; he just needs to be truthful with us every time.
    If he and his henchmen, instead, continue to misrepresent things and shout down our rational concerns, then it is a lost cause…. for us and for him.

  57. Realist says

    This sounds like a horrible environment indeed. I lack the knowledge to judge since I do not have kids in the situation…but are there not teachers at Patterson Mill who see problems or who do their job without getting involved in marching lock-step with the administration? If so, and I am sure that there are, it would be interesting to get their take on the situation. But having to work there, I am sure that their comments would be limited. When I had kids in the system, they used to promote those who were inept. This current administration is not going to be around forever. Unfortunately, that may be too late for you.

  58. Concerned Patterson Mill Parent says

    Yes, there are some excellent teachers at Patterson Mill. Unfortunately, transparency, dialogue or constructive dissent are not exactly encouraged by the director of secondary education or his minions. Which is even more of a testimony to those fine teachers and principals who DO excel in spite of this environment.

    That it may be too late for us, you are correct. All we can do while we are there is stay involved and do what we can to constructively change it.

    An elected and accountable school board might help, because then we will have a possibility of an oversight body who attempts to hold the school administration accountable (which is not the case today).

  59. Cdev says

    Parent Taxpayer buisnessman

    1) I got my facts from information that people presented here. I then augmented that with other facts and made a supposition! If you have a problem with the supposition that is open for debate but what fact did I pass off as a fact that was incorrect?
    2) See #1
    3) Spell Check is an aruguement that is generally taboo on an internet forum and it is considered bad form to point out errors like that especially when you still understand the post!

    I use we in the collective taxpayers and citizens of Harford County. I work providing educational opportunities for children with severe learning and emotional disabilities. I work a mixed shift of hours at multiple places and put in more then expected. My employers do not mind me using the internet for some personal use as long as I get my work done. What should you be doing at 10:47 AM? Do you think it is OK for some people who work to post during school hours and teachers, some of whom arrive way before they have to, stay late, take home work to not take a simple few minutes of planning time or their own lunch to clear their mind so they are ready for their students? Just a thought!

  60. Parent, Taxpayer and Businessman says

    Cdev: You missed my points completely. And I will labor no longer to explain them.

    But I commend you for the work that you do.

  61. Lew Jr. says

    Concerned PM Parent in post #61. You hit the nail on the head!!!!!! I too am a PM parent and have worked with teachers/administrators at 3 other HCPS schools. You are right on target with respect to the root cause of the problems at PM. There are many good things that take place there and many good people on staff. But when the leadership continues to ignore the problems and dismiss those that challenge the status quo as nothing but “rabble rousers”, it is shameful. While I can only speak for myself, I can say with great confidence that many (and I mean many) parents and students feel the same way. Just come to a sporting event or music performance and hear what folks are saying. You would be amazed.

  62. V says

    Cdev you really dont get it do you? my child an I went to the school’s resource officer and Joe collins and and alerted them about the situation and joe collins told my daughter to get 10 witnesses. WHAT?! haha! who does this? according to good ol joe e needed witnesses, and when the witnesses were found he still did nothing but call that cowardly molesters mom and thats how he handled it. called the dumb sherrif and nothing could be done . they didn’t come to the school to deal with that little boy.
    and you really are insensitive to people this boy has terrorized. as a matter of fact, your the only one defending that homicidal molesters rights even thogh he’s violated the rights of many others.

    here are some of your statements that irk me and just make me ask myself “why?”.

    1)I also notice you call it sexual assult and sexual harrassment. There is a BIG difference (not that either are acceptable).

    2)You are relaying third hand informastion as YOU where not there.

    3)Did it occur at school? If not there is not much they can do about it.

    4)While I am not female and have not been the victim of sexual assult or harrassment (realaize there is a huge difference so you should stop using them interchangably) I empathize with your situation but if you want to claim it is very sensitive you should be mad at the people who brought them up on a message board and posted them

    heres what i have to say to them:

    1) did you stop and think that this kid started off with the sexual harrasment and then assaulted girls sexually? i mean it makes perfect sense but im not sure if your thinking deeply before you type, because if you were, you’d recognise the point that this kid has been in the school for quite sometime and beeen getting away with what he does due to poor and biased administration.

    2)ok so let me get this straight. i’m relaying third hand info? hmmm. if my child is forced to sit in the same classes as this boy after all hes done since administrators dont do their jobs and she hears him everyday and sees what he does, the info is third hand? well if my daughter isnt a third hand source and im relaying exactly what happened since she was there, how does it make my info third hand or make me a third hand source? right… anyway, moving on.

    3)IF IT DIDNT OCCUR AT SCHOOL, THEN WHY WOULD I BE GRILLING THE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION AND THE RESOURCE OFFICER IN THE SCHOOL??!?! obviously it occured at school , why would you ask that obvious question? they’ve done nothing to punish this boy AT ALL. he needs punishment immediately and he doesnt need to be going to public school. he surely doesnt need to be around any young children. for some reason he got in no trouble for being in the middle school area where he proceeded to molest 12-13 yr old girls. the boy is 16, what business does he have with thm and why was he downstairs n that area of the school in the first place? hence why earlier i said if hes still at the school when my daughter goes to 9th grade then i’d definitely give her pepper spray to keep ki ki away from her.

    4) you’re right. your not a female and you havn’t been a victim of sexual assault or harrasment. you say you have empathy for “anon.”, but you keep sressing the dumb point of the difference between sexual assault and harassment. WHO CARES?! its on this post, and furthermore, he has no right to put his hands on anybody or anyones children.everyoe had sympathy for my daughter and others hurt by this boy and your the only talking about how that homicidal molester has rights and how we should respect them. umm HELLO! you’re the only one defending him and his actions. why should he have the rights that have been denied to other kids when he cant stop violating their rights? hes done so many things to young girls ( by that i mean the fact that he doesnt keep his hands to himself. not to mentin the fact that hes an older teen and he cant keep his hands off of young CHILDREN) and now he ran one over because he didnt want to obey the order to stop/slow down and im pretty sure he saw all the kids crossing the street. and again, he ignored the orders and ran a child over and found it to be funny and knows he has a high chance of getting away with it just because of how poorly administration handles issues at pmill.

    i cant even think of a reason to explain the way you act. you say your a parent and now im seriously worried. i just pray and hope that your daughter isn’t forced into a locker by someone who should know better, and i hope she isnt felt up and then forced to sit in the class with the same person who did this jus because the school wont expell him when complaints come about him left and right. if you act the way you’ve been acting on this post, your daughter will have a painful schooling. but then again, its kind of the only way you’ll get how people who’ve been molested and their parents feel. maybe you should know the pain of people not doing their jobs to keep your child safe. i wonder if youd still be repeating how the guy who molest your daughter should have rights too.

    i’ll post another comment when i have an update on this incident because i’m wondering how the little girl run over by “ki ki” is doing.

    if someone has a link to where i can send my regards and check on her condition it would be greatly appreciated.

  63. Concerned Patterson Mill Parent says

    Thanks Lew. The question is: how do we get Wayne to understand the big picture?
    I believe that it has to start between the stakeholders and him because our other two avenues of recourse are not very promising:

    A) The Board of Education- unfortunately their track record has been to swallow HCPS’ version of things hook, line and sinker; and then to arrogantly circle the wagons and label the concerned parents as malcontented resisters (I believe “resisters” was the term that Ms. Rich used; my apologies to her if I have that incorrect). And we are a few years away from the accountability that electing our board members will bring. One hope might rest with Mr. Hess however. He has shown a much greater degree of leadership, humility and forthrightness than the the three previous presidents combined (Fidler, Wolkow, and Rich). So maybe we have a chance there.

    B) Mr. Volrath, the Executive Director of Secondary Education – He has proven, time and again, to have ZERO inclination to engage in an honest, frank dialogue, especially when it runs counter to his own interests or aspirations.

    There is clearly a leadership vacuum that begins with the principal. Just look what has bubbled up from the incident that started this. In my opinion, we definitely do not want to have a trial and a conviction of this kid (regardless of what his attitude seems to be) on an internet forum. That’s very dangerous and won’t solve anything. But there are clearly many parents and students who feel that they have nowhere else to go with their frustrations.
    Not a good situation for anybody.

    By the way, do we have an update on how the student who was injured is recovering?

  64. Meghan says

    I go to Patterson Mill and I saw the 12 yr old today. She was in a wheelchair obviously, and has a leg cast on her left leg. She seemed to be ok and talking with her friends.

  65. Cdev says

    V…..where to start.

    You are grossly overexagerating. I think you are letting your emotions get the better of you. You have been the one tossing around different terms for an incident. He has gone from molesting to sexual assult to sexual harassment to now homicidal? He may be the scum of the earth but no where has he yet been accused of being homicidal until you have.

    Students have rights and one of them is FAPE (Free appropriate public education) Maybe he needs to be removed from a traditional school. I am inclined to agree with that assesment. That said there is a procedure as a matter of educational law in place for that. Particularly under the IDEA this procedure for students who have IEP’s and 504’s. Unfortunatley it is not just as easy as you are suspended go home. HCPS has made this difficult on schools by not making the resources availible for issolation placement that still allows them the educational instruction required. You said before “Kiki” was not special ed. I asked you do you know this as a fact being that you have seen his Cum. Folder? You never replyed. I understand you are personally enraged. But it seems you are blind to the fact that every kid despite how scummy he/she is has rights in a school setting. You advocate that the rude insubordinate kid who is being picked on about his I-pod is having his rights violated but will not extend those rights to someone else. Yes it sucks. BTW you might want to rethink your position on rights of students because if you send your child to school with pepper spray and they get caught you might have to pick them up from the Sherrif’s Office! I pray the first person who your daughter uses poor judgement on and pulls it out (since studies show teenagers are prone to poor judgement with the lack of frontal lobe development) and uses them just cuts to the chase and sues you!

    Speaking of which I have suggested numorous times that you and the others who have suffered at the hands of this person in whatever manner, since the term changes every telling of the story by you, go to the Harford County Sherrif’s office, not the SRO but the actual sheriff’s office. File a police report. Another option is as a group go to the State’s Atorney and persue that route. A third option, as much as it pains me to say it is a lawsuit. Despite the fact it will cost the taxpayers alot of money….if Joe Collins and Wayne Thibeault are as complisit as you say it would bring it to light in a manner to get action.

    I do not know how they run the school I am not in it so I am only going off of the information you provide but I refuse to believe that the entire administration of the School system, from Pat Skebeck on down would allow a student with the track record you all describe and a boundry exception to boot (which can be revoked at any time) would allow him to stay in that school with the publicity this has recieved with out doing something unless their hands where tied by some form of law such as IDEA.

    Either way I empathize I can not sympathize as I have never been in that situation. You say that everyone sympathizes but only one who has been in that situation can sympathize. Semantics I guess but words matter.

    Finally for the record I have NEVER defended this childs actions simply his rights! It is also sick of you as a parent of someone who has had this happen to them to suggest you hope it happens to someone else. While I have never been sexual assulted and can not fathom the trama caused by such an event. My wife has been raped and I know it took a great leap for her to even date me. One thing that helped her find closure she says is the fact she got to tesitify at the trial of the person who did this to her! So NEVER EVER wish it on someone!

  66. jenna j says

    omg… i kno this kid. he sits in class and laughs about this and blames it on the girl he hit. and he does need to learn to keep his hands to himself. i’ve got pepperspray and if he touches me id use it. he shouldn’t be touching people. and i dont think v wished getting raped on anyone cdev. it looks like v was mad, but he/she (it whatever sex v is) wanted you to understand a point.

    and im glad the kid is good

    does anyone know a way we can contact her???

  67. Meghan says

    Hold on Cdev. Letting the emotions get the best of V? Of course he’s frustrated, his DAUGHTER is being molested, sexually assaulted AND harrassed. Yes, ALL those terms are being used because kiki does ALL of them! He FORCES girls on lockers to grab them (sexual assault), grabs their private parts while walking down the hallway and makes disgusting remarks (sexual harrassment) and I would most definately consider him grabbing a 12 yr. old molestation when he’s almost 18! He’s not 16, he’s almost 18! And yes, he almost killed someone, tried to leave the scene and once again laughed about it so I can see why the term “homicidal” was used.

    I am also curious to know how you are SO aware of the laws and rules of the HCPS. Do you work for them? Do you personally know Collins? And nobody has stated that there is a corrupt administration. There are a few selective people at our school as named (Wayne Thibeault, Joe Collins, Kiki)

    Everyone on this page, not including yourself can sympathize for the females (including me) that have been physically and emotionally abused by this boy. You dont have to experience the exact same thing to feel sorry for pain that someone else has endured. It seems as though you are the only individual defending the rights of a person like kiki.

    I am still confused. You say you arent an administrator, therefore not an administrator at my school… your kids, if you actually have any dont go to my school so how do you even feel you have the right to say such things and tell the PARENTS OF THE VICTIMS that they are third hand sources? You havent been in the situation as these children or parents have been in so why do you insist on commenting and telling parents how to act and feel about THEIR CHILDREN and this situation?

    I was also raped so one could understand why ANOTHER male getting away with touching me would effect me this way. For the last month at PMHS until I transfer to Bel Air, I will be carrying pepperspray for my own protection. Because saying no doesnt work, pushing kiki off of me, asking my principal to help me or asking my SRO to help me, then I guess the pepperspray is my last resort. It is a natural instinct that we are born with to want to protect ourselves and the ones we love and care about. I am defending myself so I dont see how that has anything to do with my “frontal lobe development.” Its instinct.

    Lastly, no one ever “wished” that to happen to your kids. V simply stated you will not know what it feels like UNLESS it happens to you, THEREFORE you shouldnt comment on how to handle a situation that you have no experience in.

    Let the children, parents and individuals in the PMill area deal with these problems without your input.

    Honestly, please, this is enough. You are arguing your point with V so much that you have forgotten what this is about. V is the CHILD’S PARENT! If you refuse to sympathize, then at least be respectful of a fathers feeling towards his daughter.

  68. Meghan says

    No problem Vietnam Vet, I will keep everyone posted when and if I know how she is doing. I dont believe there is a way to personally get in contact with her but I will respect her and her familys privacy.

  69. Cdev says

    Please look up the term sympathy and empathy. You would know why I chose my words. Sympathy can only be had by someone who had a similar experience. Empathy can be had by anyone. My wifes experience and her quirks have made me really understand the difference between these two words!

    Why do I know what I do….EDUCATION. Read my earlier response to my job. I had to take an educational law course in addition to courses on special education law to do my job. I read journals about this. BTW they are FEDERAL laws. HCPS can not make laws. Civics 101 or LSN Govt as I believe it is now called. Those papers my kid brings home every year for me to sign…..I actually read them!

    Meghan fact. The frontal lobe is the center of self control. The frontal lobe does not fully develop until later (20 for females and 23 for males) hence the reason teenagers are generally impulsive and lack self control. Perhaps if you do not understand something you should at least use wikipedia to look it up!

    Again If V was not physically present she is not a first hand source. Please refer to the definition of primary source material.

    If the PPM community wished to not have the input of the taxpayers of this county they should not be discussing it on a public internet forum!

    Finally why do these victims not actually go to the State’s Attorney or the Sherif not the SRO?

  70. Confused says

    They dont go to the Sheriff or the State’s Attorney because they immediately refer them back to the school system. See in Harford County the school system does what is wants and basically runs what it wants. It demands that the county give them so much and the county basically caves and gives them what they want. The only reason they didnt get their full budget for this upcoming year is simply because there is no money to give. I have seen other agencies get their budgets cut just so HCPS could get their full budget, whatever the requeset. Even the County Council will not stand up to the school board – everyone seems scared of them. Trust me, as a parent who had an assault issue with a principal that was reported to the school board, who did nothing, and then to the Sheriff’s office, who in turn returned it to the school board – what good does it do to report something that is not going to be fixed.

  71. HCPParent says

    Confused – been there done that. When it comes to addressing assault and harrassment within the school, its a hopeless cause. I have experienced the same frustrating mess with the school not handling it, and law enforcement referring it back to the school. Unless someone is caught on camera or there are a lot of witnessess (or an adult witness that is willing to talk), these cases rarely get addressed. They actually get made worse because the perpetrator knows it was reported and then harasses the victims even more, FOR reporting, emboldened by the fact that they got away with it.

    Kids get away with behavior in the school that any adult would get fired for immediately in the workplace. But yet, others get disciplined and or suspended for things like chewing gum, listening to ipods, lateness to class, etc. All things that are against the rules and should be addressed, but pale compared to the things that go unaddressed.

  72. vietnam vet says

    I tell you’ what. My wife and are raiseing a little girl. under temporary custody if a creep like ”Ki” Ki’ was a tempting to harass her. you can bet I will come a live. the Authority in the School. is the principal & vice principal.

    A public forum is a start. if charges can be brought. then they should be.

  73. Realist says

    HCPParent…I think you are right. I no longer have kids in the system, but I have heard from some of my neighbors that discipline is not consistent among some of the administration there. From what I hear – AND YES, this is second hand – your assessment is dead on. Some students can curse at a teacher and get a “no, no” and other students can chew gum and get detention. I also hear that it is the same with the teachers in the building. If you are not “on the team,” you get treated a bit differently. Now, if this is true…and I can’t say whether it is or if it isn’t…then it seems that parents, teachers, and students have issues with the administration at Patterson Mill. Interesting…very few things cause commonality and alliances between parents, teachers, and students any more. I think we have found one!

  74. HCPParent says

    I have also more than one teacher exclaim (off the record of course) that they just don’t bother writing referrals any more because nothing happens to the person being referred and they (the teacher) are looked at (treated) as if THEY are a problem for writing too many referrals.

    Now THAT is sad.

    I believe there are quite a few teachers that are just as frustrated with the way things are and others that just survive by being ‘one of the team’.’

  75. Sick of Pmill and its "supporters" says

    Wow I dont even know what to say to you Cdev. If you scroll down this page you will see the people in support of Meghans post. Really, what is your job!? To be a huge a**hole? Well you’re sure good at that so I hope you get a good salary. You make no sense, are rude and heartless. You dont go to this school like WE DO, dont go through what WE DO, dont have kids that go there LIKE OUR PARENTS DO so STOP commenting! Any “supporters?”

  76. Sick of Pmill and its "supporters" says

    Cdev, you obviously have your vocabulary mixed up. I know what the two words, “sympathy” and “empathy” mean., and my logic is correct. You are the one with the words switched. Obviously you dont know your vocab because you suggested to use wikipedia??? Do you know that wikipedia can be changed by anyone? Hints thats why teachers dont want their students using it to get information. You are obviously an administrator so you should know that above all people. Once again, get it right, I wasnt talking about frontal lobe development and the girl having self control. I was saying no matter what age it is natural instinct to want to protect yourself and the people you care about. Once again thats INSTINCT, do you need me to copy and paste the definition for you from wikipedia? Or should we use a reliable source like Here you go:

    Cdev fact! Instinct -an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.

    Like every post after mine has stated, this matter is something that should be handled in school considering thats where the incidences took place. When some of the victims of kiki talked to the Sherriff’s and States Attorney’s office and they sent them back to the school!

    Again V is not stating hes a first hand source! He is saying his information about this topic is more accurate than yours because his daughter is a victim and told her story. She is a first hand source. You are far from a first hand source, if even a THIRD HAND source.

    Once again stop with your senseless and now more than annoying comments!

  77. Cdev says

    Yes I know wikipedia can be changed. I simply suggested it as a starting point! Which it is a good starting point. If you explore the other referenced matrials you will find more answers. Just like the references in the encyclopedias where there for.

    I do not see anywhere where you said anything until now but Meghan said that it was instinct. Instinct is what dominates from lack of a frontal lobe which is why I suggested it was a bad idea to send a teenager who is emotional and would lack good judgement skills that come from a fully developed brain to school with pepper spray which is clearly prohibited in a school and labeled as a weapon!

    Furthermore this is the first post on this topic after yours by someone other then yourself unless you changed names! in which case what are your other aliases? I do not want to confuse you as being multiple people!

    Obviously the majority of posters and I disagree neither of us will change eachothers minds. I offerdd a plausible theory or explination as to why this scum has not been suspended. You may not like it….You don’t have to like it in fact….this is the USA and the first ammendment which gives you the right to discuss it gives me the right to disagree with it. So simply we have to tolerate each others disagreement. But you do not need to be abusive and call me obscenities. I disclosed my job earlier if you would like to know what I do. If you where my child and called anyone that I would wash your mouth out with soap! You however are not so continue to run your foul mouth as a credit to the great job your parents have done at teaching you appropriate behavior. I am sure you will go far telling that to your boss when you disagree with him.

  78. Larry says

    Since we are working on our vacabulary here, how about this one:
    Compassion — a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

    In repeating an earlier post — The bottom line is that students deserve to feel safe at school. If that isn’t the case, then there is still work to be done BY ALL toward that goal.

  79. Meghan says

    Hmm, Cdev, um just a guess but ah maybe they should bring pepperspray to protect themselves? I mean I dont think its instinct to grab young females that dont want you near them in the first place (kiki). You shouldnt tell the victim what to do. Iwould do the same thing since administrators and authorities wont help ME either from kiki.

    I have no “alliances” unless you consider the MULTIPLE OTHER GIRLS that were being sexually harrassed, sexually assaulted, molested and almost killed my “friends.” They feel the same way because they actually have to go through what I go through being around this sick person. You’re rediculous and I cant believe you had the you know whats to post back.

    I actually have a great job that I’ve been working at since I was 14, trying to SUPPORT MY FAMILY! I have no doubt in my mind that I will make more money than a lot of people because “some people” dont have common sense. My parents are dead and I support my sister,brother and nephew ALONE! Ive raised myself. Im glad you’ve been fortunate enough to not have such a difficult life. I am commentting on you based on your opinions stated above, not by how your parents have raised you, even though its clearly obvious not very well and you’re a grown “man.” Pathetic, you’re probably in your 30’s or 40’s and you’re spending all your time on an website posting your ludacris comments and arguing with a 17 yr old. Ha, your parents taught you well. Loser, show some compassion like the last comment said

  80. Brenda says

    why do you think Havre de Grace High was in such horrible shape a few years ago??? WAYNE THIBEAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can tell you that Thibeault is afraid of the children of minority, I have witnessed many minorities being allowed to do things that white children were suspended for! During his tenure a student that made a comment about toilet papering a teachers car got 10 days suspension. Yet minority children that were fighting got 2 or 3 days. Thibeault threatened to kick my son off the lacrosse team for hitting too hard during practice. Lacrosse is a contact sport go figure! I could tell you story after story of Thibeault and his antics at Havre de Grace. As for Volrath, there hasn’t been a bigger waste of breath!!! The same teacher who complained that a student was going to toilet paper her car- her son started a fire in the bathroom at his school and he got the same penalty. GO FIGURE things are soooooo fair in HCPS, I am just sooooo glad I am DONE with HCPS!

    Don’t waste your breath on Thibeault or Volrath, you might as well talk to a wall. Although Thibeault will sit and coddle you and agree with you to your face. You will be lucky to have Volrath even return your phone call. I was too verbally aggressive with dear old whiney Thibeault, he called the police on me twice, not that it did him any good.

  81. V says

    everybody calm down. theres no point in arguing with cdev. when did i wish someone would get raped? the whole idea of the statement was that if you were in the same situation that you wouldn’t be acting the way you are now. i’m gonna tell you again that “ki ki” isn’t in special ed. i dont know how many special ed kids that you know that get provisional licenses, but when you find out please tell me and everyone else that has commented on this page. if almost everybody on this page is disagreeing with you, the problem isnt them. i called “ki ki” homicidal because of the fact that he ran over a 12yr old child and found it to be funny. and i got some more news for you so you can defend him. over the weekend he crashed ANOTHER car car into somebody else (dont worry people, this person was in a car as well). i wonder if this latest crash is going to be on this website. im not sure why his license wasnt revoked yet when he already ran that young girl over but for some reason he was still driving. why isnt this piece of trash off the street and going to home school? and i know you shouldnt have gotten cursed at cdev, but that gives you no right to talk about someones parents. especially to a minor. you dont know if their parents are dead or alive and you cant judge the parents fully on a childs behavior and say they have bad parenting skills or they’re bad parents. How would you know??? you sit here and bark out orders for parents to follow that are in these books you read but your going to have to look at the fact that everything doesnt work the exact way it is in a book. this is reality. we’re not robots, and if someone who is supposed to help doesnt because they dont wanna do their jobs, we suffer. your suggestions dont work because the help is unreliable. and no, i havnt seen his cum.folder. how would i even look at that. if he was in special ed i’d like to know how he got his hands on a license. can you tell me???

    and you wanted to warp my words and say i wanted someone to get raped but you dont want to apologise for what you say or how you act and your saying thing that have been proven to make no sense and you’ve been arguing ove rthe meanings of words which dont even matter and your definitions are wrong. what does the frontal lobe have to do with anything? are you tellling me that if i give my daughter pepperspray that because “her frontal lobe isnt developed”, that shes gonna run down the hallway spraying people or jus throw herself on the ground and start drooling? these kids are in high school and no matter how much you want to use the frontal lobe a a reason, they have common sense as to when the right time is to use pepperspray. its a “weapon” that is used in self defense. do you expect parents to just let their daughters get molested by ki ki to have the cycle repeat of the administrators doing nothing? if he was outside of school he would be trying to rape these girls. what do you think is gonna happen?? do you think my daughter along with others will go to jail.


    judge: telll us what hapened ki ki.

    ki ki : yes judge. this girl wouldn’t let me molest her, sexually assault her, or rape her. and oh yea, she did this by spraying me with ppperspray when i wouldnt stop trying to touch her.

    judge: OUTRAGEOUS! she sprayed you with pepperspray?! im sending (insert your daughters name here) to jail!

    sorry it wont work like that. this kid needs to get home schooled where he is away from everyone so he cant harm or molest them. and the judge thing was just an example everybody. im just saying what i interpret will happen based on what cdev has been telling everyone many times. and im glad the little girl is alright. im just wondering if ki ki’s latest vehicular assault will be up here

  82. Cdev says

    I am sorry that you did not intend to wish ill on my child but that is how I precieved your remarks. If there is a mispreception of what you said I will accept your explaination and move on.

    I know many special ed kids who get liscences. Special ed does not mean self contained it can mean ADHD, Dislexia, low IQ, processing problems and many other issues that seem innocuous. These kids are still prottected by IDEA

    The minor who let the obcentiy fly was simply informed of what would happen if they where my child and if they are going to cuse at adults whom they disagree with they should perhaps not be on a internet forum. True not all parenting can be judged by a child’s behavior but in my experience if they think it is acceptable to do something they learned it some where if that was at home from watching their parents then that is poor parenting if their parent neglects to parent then that is poor parenting. However this minor claims to be emancipated so…..they are not a minor child anymore.

    I fear that sometimes kids do not act appropriate as evidence by the obcenity earlier. We both agree it was uncalled for. Maybe this kid is very sweet but when emotional responds in this manner. Lets say that she had pepper spray and someone dared to defend the rights of Kiki (not his actions which I have made it clear I do not defend) So she pulls out her pepper spray in a fit of rage and sprays them. That is not self defense. That is Assult. Second she is nto allowed to have it at school in the first place. Kids do this with Cell Phones they pull them out at inappropriate times. For example I went to see Star Trek this weekend and a few teenagers where texting in the movie upfront. Not appropriate time. That is what frontal lobe development has to do with this. The Frontal lobe is the part of your brain which controls impulsive and instinctual behavior to help comply with societal norms and allows you to excercise good judgement.

    Look I think we obviously disagree and I am in the minority here, I get that. I still have the right to express my opinion as you do. I am not going to change yours and you are not going to change mine so we will have to agree to disagree and move on. Perhaps someday there will be an issue which we agree on but this one is not it. I am sorry if I have hurt any feelings, that was not my intent it is hard to control yourself when you are being personally attacked by MANY people and in some cases the same person posing as multiple people. So again I offer my humble apologies and I forgive those who excercised poor jusgement and choices in words and felt the need to get personal. This is perhaps a lesson to all that the internet while wonderful is not a media that allows for convence of emotion and we should remember the screen name has a person on the otherside!

  83. Pmill student says

    Bottom line, Patterson Mill Middle High School should have never been built. Certain people in it need to be fired and expelled as we all know. This “school” is a disgrace to our community and I pray for any children that continue to attend or will be attending this school in the future. I will do as best I can to stop the unfair and disgusting behavior of certain individuals at that school, but I am only 16 and can only do so much. Any suggestions?

  84. Cdev says

    Why should thechool have never been built? True we could have reshuffled the boundries to a degree and moved kids out of Bel Air and Fallston to Northe Harford, Joppatowne and Edgewood but somehow I suspect some people would have had a big fit so building a new school was the next best solution.

  85. PMHS Junior says

    The injustices done at Patterson Mill High School cannot be backed up what so ever. As a student, I have witnessed countless times in which the wrong people get in trouble! Personal Vendettas between the teacher and administrators are evident everyday in and out of the classroom. However, most try to overlook these things until something has happened to them. We cannot stand by idlely and watch as this new school gains ground as being a troubled school. I want to feel safe at my school and I would like to see the other students feel the same way. I say that some type of pamphlet should be designed by a committee and students and parents, showing the true un-biased view of PMHS. We are not a minority of students who feel that our school is not headed in the direction we would. I have informed my parents that our school is not this “perfect brand new paradise” as the county protrays it. People just dont want to believe that we have inadequate administration. Anyway, if there is action from the students about a regime change or proposing more clarified rules, we will be unconditionally suspended. A motion of change is immediately disregarded as insubordination and we cannot do anything about it. Any suggestions on changing this would be greatly appreciated, i fear that it will be much worse before we see the light again.

  86. Cindy says

    Pmill Student and PMHS Junior, please contact your PTSA. It is the mission of PTSA to be a strong advocate for the education and well being of every child. Contact information is on your school’s edline page.

    The PTSA ‘s Legislative/Advocacy Committee is available to you as a resource, especially when more than one student, parent or staff member share a common concern. I am a co-chair of that committee, so I can assure you that we will do what we can to assist.

    Sometimes, the actions of administrators can be hard to understand from an outside perspective – we don’t have the benefit of all available information. At the same time, students always have a right to feel safe in school. The PTSA can help bring both sides together to resolve issues where possible and help determine next steps if necessary.

  87. Darth says

    Hi Brenda,
    Do I know you? What privilege have you tweaked in order to be privvy to my son’s disciplinary record? I am the mother of the boy that lit toilet paper at his school, an act for which he was fittingly punished by SEVERAL agencies, and for which I am completely mortified. We have apologized and paid for the damage and worked with our son intensely on this. Some comments here seem to reflect a belief that teachers’ kids get special treatment. In more than twenty years, it looks to me like the opposite is true. Teachers’ kids receive LESS consideration than others in many cases because there is such a fear of appearing to be unfair.

    I can tell you that I have no recollection at all of the incident you recount. I don’t remember having anybody threaten to toilet paper my car. That would stand out as a silly threat, I think, though my memory for every incident is far from perfect. I REALLY don’t have the impression that I have ever been able to sway any administrator as to what consequence a given kid should receive.

    There are, as previously commented by another poster, federal and state laws that have to be obeyed, and many more considerations when dealing with kids in schools than most people are really aware of. And really that’s the way it should be, because they are all kids, and they all have a legal right to privacy of their records. We can’t be back-seat drivers on all decisions, no matter what our role.

    So I hope the readers of this overheated venting of many spleens will take what they read with a grain of salt, because it is just so easy to fudge the facts when you are not accountable.

  88. Rin says

    Wow! I realize I’m a little late on this post but still wanted to address it. It is obvious that many parents and students at PMHS are dissatisfied with the way that the school is run by the principal and vice principal. As an educator myself and a parent I’m a bit disturbed by the many posts on here about students being hurt and nothing being done about it. It’s too bad that those in the higher ups don’t listen and take these things seriously. I have been in a school where the word of the principal wasn’t worth much — and I am now in one where the principal is good to his word, backs his teachers, and tells it like it is. It certainly makes it easier to be a teacher when the administration backs you up.

    On a side note, I taught the student in question who was run over by this boy. Sweet kid, loved her… apparently she was a good athlete at PMMS and now the doctors have told her that she won’t be able to play sports like she used to. So now what could have been a scholarship for sports to college — won’t be because of this stupid boy. Really Makes me MAD! I hope he is punished for his actions.

  89. Former Pmill Sufferer says

    GOD i remember this. that place makes me sick. not only were the students idiots, but the thing that makes me sick is that the teachers and admins were involved. my friend was denied his boundary exception but the kids that had PTA public relations or were liked by the admins got their exception