Del. Pat McDonough, boisterous champion of the “Speak English” platform and career combatant of “illegal aliens,” has vowed to bring Arizona’s immigration reform legislation to Maryland if he is re-elected to office.
During a news conference he has scheduled for noon Friday, McDonough will announce his intention to introduce a bill during the Maryland General Assembly’s 2011 session that will replicate the Arizona immigration law.
The recently-approved Arizona immigration law extends and expands state law enforcement’s abilities to stop, question, detain, and eventually deport suspected illegal immigrants if they are not carrying the appropriate identification. The bill has created a national debate with opponents warning that it authorizes and empowers racial profiling, while supporters say the legislation was long overdue and only necessary because the federal government refuses to enforce immigration laws already on the books.
McDonough said he has invited Senator Russell Pearce from Arizona, the primary sponsor of the new law, to visit Maryland and claimed that a similar immigration bill would be widely supported in this state.
“If [former Gov. Robert] Ehrlich supports the Arizona legislation in Maryland, he will be re-elected,” McDonough predicted.
McDonough, who said he was recently given a standing ovation during a Bowleys Quarters community association meeting when he announced his intentions to bring the Arizona immigration reform to Maryland, also “guaranteed” that 70 percent of Harford County would support such a bill.
During his last eight years in office, McDonough says he has introduced 11 pieces of immigration-related legislation. Each has been killed by his fellow members of the Maryland General Assembly, whom he calls “lawmakers who support lawbreakers.”
The Arizona immigration bill contains elements from most of those pieces of legislation, McDonough said. It’s also nothing new, he claims. The Arizona bill mirrors the federal Immigration Act, which McDonough said the administrations of Presidents Barack Obama and George W. Bush refused to enforce. Arizona is just taking matters into its own hands to make sure those federal measures are enforced.
“The Arizona bill is simply a replication of the federal Immigration Act. There is nothing new in the Arizona bill,” he added.
CASA de Maryland, whose mission is “to work with the community to improve the quality of life and fight for equal treatment and full access to resources and opportunities for low-income Latinos and their families,” quickly took a position on the immigration legislation issue – starting a “Shame on Arizona” campaign:
Arizona Governor Jan Brewer just signed a law that will authorize officers to pull over, question, and detain anyone they have a “reasonable suspicion” to believe is in this country without proper documentation. It’s legalized racial profiling, and it’s an affront on all of our civil rights, especially Latinos. It’s completely unacceptable.
Join us in letting Arizona’s leaders know how we feel, and that there will be consequences. A state that dehumanizes its own people does not deserve our economic support.
CASA de Maryland, whose members have quite literally tangled with McDonough over immigration issues, is troubled by the delegate’s intentions.
“This law criminalizes immigrants and will only lead to racial profiling. Arizona’s misguided law will not fix the broken immigration system; it will only create fear and pain within the American community,” said Tania Del Angel, communication specialist for CASA de Maryland.
McDonough said he has been dealing with CASA’s “repititious nonsense” for eight years. “I ignore them,” he said before rattling off a list of items uncovered last year that he claims discredit the group (including, he said, $1 million from Hugo Chavez and instructions for illegal immigrants to not cooperate with law enforcement, among others).
As for the controversial claims of racial profiling, McDonough doesn’t see anything wrong with having to carry identification.
“Identification was not created by the Nazis, it’s part of a functioning society,” he said.
After the campaign filing deadline in early July, McDonough said he plans on mailing a letter to every candidate for governor and the General Assembly, asking them simply if they would support a similar such immigration reform bill in Maryland. He intends to make the results public during the upcoming election season.
God forbid this passes — but if it does, I hope the police stop McDonough on suspicion of being an illegal immigrant from middle earth. He reminded me of a hobbit when I saw him in the 4th of July parade last year.
You can write insults, but can you construct an intelligent argument to make a point?
No Phil, I can’t dumb it down to something simpler for you to understand other than the term Unconstitutional — and that appears to be something you and Frodo can’t seem to get your mind around.
While your insults are very clever, the fact is that all immigrants to the U.S. are told in the official welcome guide that they must “carry proof of your permanent resident status at all times”. One is left wondering what the purpose of this rule is if not to provide this proof if required. All of the problems we’re seeing with regard to illegal aliens would have been avoided if the borders were actually treated as national borders. The state department consistently denies my in-laws tourist visas from a foreign country yet by the simple accident of geography those to the south are given a pass… then supported on tax dollars.
“carry proof of your permanent resident status at all times”
True. However, the debate is how this proof is to be proven. Whether McDonough and others like it or not you can not simply grab someone off the street a force them to show identification (hence just cause). The purpose is to provide identification when just cause has been satisfied.
“All of the problems we’re seeing with regard to illegal aliens would have been avoided if the borders were actually treated as national borders.”
True. We should be treating our borders as secure. I would content that we would hear as many complaints about funding such a project (see the wall) as we do about the illegal alien issue.
Of course part of the larger issue in play here is passive racism and generalities. Our discourse seems to only be concerned with these mysterious ‘problems’ caused by illegals and all the money we are spending on them. It would be interesting to see the comparison of working poor US citizens in terms of those issues vs illegals. I’m not convinced that the data would be leveraged towards illegals.
That and no one seems worried about the larger ungaurded border up north that most of the 911 terrorist used to enter this country.
Thank god they caught him. As promised, I apologize to Tea Party members everywhere for thinking that your wing-nut agenda might have in some way contributed to that particular incident of insanity.
ForestHillResident
So you think you can make unfounded baseless hideous accusations against people with whom you politically disagree and when proof emerges that your lie is a lie all you have to do is say whoops wrongsy, sorry my bad?
Joe
OK, I was right. You can’t. Thanks for the confirmation.
For Mark, “passive racism” – not an issue… I’m married to a foreigner and expect to retire in a foreign land (although it seems that if I wait long enough America will be a foreign land)… If an illegal costs one dollar more in taxes than he generates, he is a burden. What I see is Arizona acting out of desperation. The citizens support the action. They are faced with deteriorating conditions of drug violence, kidnappings etc. and they are getting zero help from the Feds. (I know a Deputy who was told to turn a dozen illegals loose because ICE didn’t want them…) The Feds as usual won’t do their job and the dems won’t do anything to upset a voting block. This is an action by Arizona for Arizona and faced with possible boycott and the economic impact I suspect they’ll choose personal safety first… at least they’ll be alive to lament the loss of income.
My point is that you support a bill intended to go after people because of their appearance yet somehow think this tripe merits some kind of higher level of consideration. If you want to persecute people based upon how they look, I have every right to do so as well. Show me a rational proposal and I’ll treat it in kind. This is undeserving.
Teabaggers were the ones to claim that Obama is a socialist. It should be clear that that was just a smokescreen and they now show their true colors by advocating this undeniable fascism.
I can’t wait to see the post where one of your like proposes instead of an identity card which can be lost counter-fitted or stolen we instead tattoo ID numbers on every brown-skinned person’s arm.
I’ll lay 10-1 odds that the bomb this weekend in Times Square was a lone Teabagger attempting to advance the cause by copying Hitler’s Nazi Beer Hall Putsch.
I am disgusted to see that Harford County sunk to a level that they had elected a joke like McDonough. He has been an ineffectual joke who has made the true concerns of the citizens of this County within the State House irrelevant by this nonsense. We can clearly do better and the solution is not found by electing more like him.
ForestHillResident –
Fascism and Nazism are statist products of leftist-progressives and are an anathema to conservative constitutional Tea Party ideology.
It is foolish, stupid and reckless of you to blame the Times Square bombing attempt on conservative Tea Party folks.
Finally your virulent and specious diatribe railing against SB1070, Delegate McDonough and Tea Party conservatives is unpersuasive.
Joe
Passive racism is not the issue?
I return to my original premise: If the issue is about individuals being a burden on the state, why are we not targeting the working poor who are also costing us more dollars then they are generating? I got several friends who fall into that category.
My point about generalities also still stands. Our discourse is simply labeling ‘illegals’ as the source of our violence, kidnapping, etc. Our prison system is not full of illegal aliens, but rather citizens for whom this applies. In my opinion, illegals are probably less likely to commit crimes because of the undue attention it would bring to their illegal status.
My point: We are blowing this illegal boogie-man out of proportion in an attempt to move discourse towards fear-mongering. And yes, racism does play a role. I didn’t hear McDonough get up in arms about speaking English when the summer jobs in OC were taken away from our hard-working legal teens by the Eastern Europeans (sarcasm). Guess they look to much like the majority of us.
Mark –
Illegal aliens are a significant burden to prisons of border states.
“Arizona lawmakers say their new immigration enforcement law will help them fight an illegal immigrant crime wave that is sweeping the state, a claim that is backed by studies and statistics that suggest border states have a disproportionately high number of criminals who are illegal immigrants.”
http://tiny.cc/ju470
Joe
I meant to say passive racism is not an issue for ME. I thought that would come across clearer than it did. You’ll find racism – passive and active – round the world. As for the “working poor”, they aren’t here illegally so I’m not sure where the comparison is.
As for prison population, I daresay the prison population in Arizona must look different from that of Maryland. This is a state issue. It is a state law. I doubt that it would pass the constitutionality test, but I hope it spurs the feds to action. This problem is truly bi-partisan since both parties are scared to do anything about it. And their fear of alienating a voting block will continue to leave the citizens of Arizona at risk. For all the ranting about how bad this law is (and I agree it sucks) I don’t hear any viable alternatives being suggested here or anywhere else. I don’t foresee this guy successfully bringing this type of legislature to Maryland because we simply don’t have the problems Arizona has.
“Our discourse is simply labeling ‘illegals’ as the source of our violence, kidnapping, etc” Um… the violence is along the southern border of Arizona… that’s across from Mexico. All the reports are that it’s illegals killing and kidnapping illegals and now it’s spilling over to Arizona citizens and someone finally wants to do something about it. What about the inherent racism in the lack of concern when it was illegals killing illegals?
Joe C — I’ll live with an acknowledgment of Specious for my post. As long as you’re saying that I’m not actually wrong in my being offended and sickened by McDonough and the brand of leadership he brings to office. I recognize it’s an uphill battle trying to convince any of you true believers that you should be ashamed of yourselves so I’m unsurprised that you tell me that my comments are not persuasive. Still the fact no one can really defend the record of this clown in an election year is telling.
I did look up the term fascism on Wikipedia before I posted an nowhere did it say it was a term that was solely the domain of the imagination of liberals. I do feel that it is very ahmadinejadish of you to attempt to further a political agenda through such an argument.
I’ll hold off on any more comments about Times Square until I either issue an apology or an I told you so. We’ll see. It’s hard for me to believe that any political organization can be as fast and loose with the facts as the Tea Party has in the past year and then not have to come face-to-face with the impact this rhetoric has on the mentally insane. You are correct that this may not be the Tea Party’s McVeigh moment but what really are the odds that it isn’t.
ForestHillResident
You seem pretty comfortable making reckless and outrageous statements that are products of you narrow an inaccurate views.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Joe
Joe C – The mayor of NYC made the same speculation on the CBS Evening News about the origin of the bomber that I made earlier today. Don’t worry –> I do understand that the vast majority of the Tea Party is made up of a bunch of deadbeats who simply ran up the proverbial check but now want to weasel out of paying the bill and not really militant Fascist extremists. None of the fallout of from this ongoing investigation will alter that overarching view.
Federal authorities arrested a U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent Monday night on New York’s Long Island in connection with the attempted Times Square car bombing.
The man was identified as Shahzad Faisal of Connecticut, according to NBC News.
The first person the police should ask for their birth certificate is Barrack Obama
Tom
I appreciate your passion, but this birth certificate crap is a distraction.
Joe
I agree with you Joe.
Arizona is getting a massive ‘buycott’ because they are the only state SO FAR that has the stones to enact this. 70% of America supports it. Deal with it- November is coming, you’ll get USED to ‘dealing with it’ along with your other Leftist cohorts-!
He is just playing to the tea baggers. Arizona Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik has called the state’s tough new law “racist,” “disgusting” and “unnecessary.” He said it would force police officers to use racial profiling, which is illegal in Arizona. But Sheriff Dupnik says that’s the problem. He told local Arizona news station KGUN9 that enforcing the law will by definition mean racial profiling, which he could also be sued for. “We’re kind of in a damned if we do, damned if we don’t situation,” he said. “It’s just a stupid law.” Moreover, since police departments have turned illegal immigrants over to ICE, there was no charge to the county. Now, with this law, the county must prosecute and imprison violators the cost will bankrupt the state.
http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/expect-challenges-to-arizona-immigration-law-soon/19458839
But I guess McDonough knows better.
US Taxpayer – You are just one of the peas in the liberal pod.
OBAMA = Rev Wright, Nancy Perlosi, Bill Ayers, Al Sharpton, Harry Reid, Barney Frank & Beans, Jesse Jackson and Henry Waxman.
Liberal Spenders, Criminal Defenders & Race Baiters, Social Equality through Entitlements & Wealth Redistribution, Control through Liberal Take Over of Our Court System.
No Thanks – Liberal Days are numbered……..
Braveheart: You have said this at least three times. Can you come up with any other lines?
Who cares what Sheriff Clarence Dumbass thinks, he doesn’t have a law degree!! By the way, along with his law degree, were is his accounting degree to know that it would bankrupt the state!! Liars use statistics and statistics never lie!?!?!?
Illegal aliens are here illegally!!! They are breaking the law every day that they are here. Arizona is actually asking the police to catch lawbreakers who are violating federal law. How dare Arizona pass a law to question and detain law breakers! If it means getting rid of illegals that cost this country tens of billions of dollars a year, than I would be more than happy to show proof of citizen if asked.
WAy to go Arizona and the other states that are looking into passing similar immigration bills. I hope that my home state Kansas follows suit. If these people want to be here, than they can apply legally! T Their illegally working here drives down wages for Americans! Besides that is it fair to illegals to live as modern day slaves? Working for slave wages, is it not racist to promote slavery? Also is it fair to not only American citizens, but people who are not breaking the law to obtain citizenship?
Most illegals are poor and uneducated, this puts a burden on our school, health, and welfare systems. People can come over here illegally and apply and receive all kinds of state and federal hand- outs. Is this fair? In a severe economic recession is it smart to keep giving hand- outs to people here illegally who are taking American jobs? Wake up America!
Pat McDonough, what an ass you are. What if the cops stopped you because you had an “Irish” sounding name? Or because you look like you dye your hair too dark (which you actually do). What a hypocrite you are. You and your ilk “preach” about smaller, less intrusive government AND legislating “constitutionally”, and then you endorse just the opposite! And by the way….Ann, being an “illegal alien” is NOT the point. The point is that good / honest / legal citizens will be stopped without justification! And Pat, are you serious? Ehrlich will NOT be elected to governor whether he endorses your lame-brained idea or not! Also, why were all 11 of your bills regarding immigration reform killed by your colleagues? Because they were ridiculous….just like you. You don’t deserve to be re-elected, and Ehrlich doesn’t deserve to be elected. Wouldn’t it have been great if Bob Ehrlich decided NOT to run for governor, and YOU did? That way, Maryland would be guaranteed to have O’Malley as our Governor for another four years, and the 7th district wouldn’t have Pat McDonough as their delegate!
BS – You are just one of the peas in the liberal pod.
OBAMA = Rev Wright, Nancy Perlosi, Bill Ayers, Al Sharpton, Harry Reid, Barney Frank & Beans, Jesse Jackson and Henry Waxman.
Liberal Spenders, Criminal Defenders & Race Baiters, Social Equality through Entitlements & Wealth Redistribution, Control through Liberal Take Over of Our Court System.
No Thanks – Liberal Days are numbered……..
How original!
Braveheart….Thanks for the compliment! I’ll happily accept the liberal label if you accept the moron label that you exemplify. P.S. Everyone’s days are numbered (if you know how to count).
Why a new law when we already have federal law? Just ask your State employee (cops & Sheriff) to follow the Federal law, whats this fuss all about? Why pass a new state law? This is what I cannot understand. Sheriff Joe Arpaio has been doing it for years, I guess
Gov Jan Brewer did it cuzz she wanted to look tougher then Sheriff Joe Arpaio. You know what? Because Sheriff Joe Arpaio is going to run for Arizona Gov Jan Brewer as Republican Primary. Its all politics! No one cares you you, America or the illegals….. Its all about the Votes! And ever other politicians is just following the Craze……. What do you have to say?
Robbie
If the law is redundant there is no problem, right.
Joe
I have heard comments about how its unfair to pull someone over and ask for identification. The few times I have been pulled over I was asked to see my drivers license. Should I play the race card since I’m native american? Most states do not allow illegals a drivers license, so they shoulnt be driving where they can get pulled over anyway!
Ann the idiot…..when someone is “pulled over”, it’s for a CAUSE, and because of that, the driver is required to produce their license. It makes sense (something that you obviously lack)
The difference between your “argument” and the Arizona fiasco is CAUSE!
B.S. Detector! What branch of Government do you collect a check from. Lets have a little background – maybe your part of that crack Harford County Health Inspection Gang.
BS Detector –
You are full of it, kind sir.
NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A PEACE OFFICER MAY LAWFULLY STOP
ANY PERSON WHO IS OPERATING A MOTOR VEHICLE IF THE OFFICER HAS REASONABLE SUSPICION TO BELIEVE THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF ANY CIVIL TRAFFIC LAW.
Below is a link to the full text “Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act” S.B. 1070 http://tiny.cc/e5gvh
Joe
Joe: Once again you go off half cocked. Here is the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution, which has precedence over all local laws: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
There is a big difference between “reasonable suspicion” and “probable cause” notwithstanding YOUR CAPITAL LETTERS. Do you think that capital letters makes your argument any more compelling?
US Taxpayer –
If you looked at the bill you would have seen that the section I lifted was in caps, which would mean I was being accurate and not yelling.
Joe
Joe: Do you know the difference between the two?
US Taxpayer –
I read the bill and don’t find a difference between “reasonable suspicion” and “probable cause”. In fact the Arizona law is based on federal law. A law enforcement under either law must respect civil rights.
Joe
US Taxpayer = Obama
Can’t believe a word they say.
Joe, thank God you are not a judge.
Braveheart: try a different line. Try saying something intelligent.
Pat McDonough is an embarassment to his district. He is nothing more than an opportunistic media whore. He has done nothing of value during his years in office. Time for him to go in November!
HEY! They’re called illegal aliens because … THEY’RE HERE ILLEGALLY! THEY ARE BREAKING FEDERAL LAW!!! They are taking jobs and money and services that law-abiding citizens are entitled to! What in the world do you think the word ILLEGAL means?
I agree Robin Hood, and he can take his overzealous, right-wing nut followers with him.
And Ann, what jobs are immigrants taking from Americans? Picking fruit on farms and getting paid under the table? Cleaning politicians’ homes? Prostitution? Yeah, I’m sure many of you crying about jobs being stolen would gladly apply for those. Some of you ultra-conservatives and Teagaggers are the ones that need to wake up.
Braveheart, you are a broken record and have been since I’ve been posting here. Either find something else to say or give it up.
Ann: I think you are blaming the wrong people for your brother’s loss of a job. An illegal may have taken the job, but he lost it because, I am guessing, he did not work in a union shop.
You are indirectly responsible if you vote Republican because they are only interested in helping big business. They make it easy for companies to shunt aside Americans, and hire illegals at a fraction of the cost. Unions protect American jobs. This new Arizona law does not fine business for hiring illegals because it was written by Republicans for the benefit of the elite rich.
US Taxpayer –
Unions have done a terrific track record of keeping jobs in the US, not!
Joe
Joe: Your proof for this statement is not.
… oh, by the way “ForestHillResident”, it’s a shame that the only thing you can contribute to this discussion is a pitiful diatribe on how he looks. Name-calling … the last gasp from an intolerant personality!
My brother lost his job as a stone mason because constriction sites get cheaper labor from illegal aliens. This was at one time a descent paying job. But greedy people would rather hire an illegal and pay half what they would an American with no benefits! It’s not just housekeepers and farmers who are loosing jobs to illegals.
Ann: ” But greedy people would rather hire an illegal and pay half what they would an American with no benefits! It’s not just housekeepers and farmers who are loosing jobs to illegals”.
Then you should not support Tea Party Republicans who do the hiring of illegals and then fire Americans in order to make higher profits. Don’t vote against your own best interests.
So are you then saying that the Teabaggers who would like to seem them summarily deported are the same ones hiring them? Seems counter-intuitive to me.
hey buddy, this is two years old… no need to incite another 500 comments.
Then Ann what do you find more offensive the non national who comes here? or the American Citizen who hires the illegals and invites them here? I ask because currently we do not punish the employers with any real consequences!
Sure Ann. How do you know that the stone mason was an “illegal”? Maybe (and more that likely) he was legal. Will they work for less? Yes! (and many times harder than “domestic” labor) I’ve seen it again and again.
B.S. Detector! you seem to know a lot for guy who spends most of his time in the Government Free Cheese line. Wow….
additionally, it is not just illegal aliens who affect the Job market. People here on student visas with no work visa or a restricted to part time work visa are taking fulltime jobs. I work as a nurse and see this all of the time in my field. These people breaking the law on student visas should also be deported!
Ann, just follow your conservative desires to their rightful end….end unions, wage laws, environmental protections safety inspections and building codes…then your brother would have a nice job….working for crap and living in squalor.
Find and arrest the bosses (the true criminals) not the laborers (the victims)
Judging by this comment, randy obviously has no clue about conservatives (when did they say they want to end inspections or building codes?), and can’t think rationally enough to realize that the problem is with both the laborers (who were illegal even before they got the jobs, not victims) AND the employers.
Phil: does the expression “smaller, less intrusive government” ring a bell? If conservatives want to cut out ALL government, then that includes things like inspectors. This sounds just like the people who wanted NO government health care except for Medicare and VA (which are government health care). You can’t have it both ways. Either big business looks out for you or big government.
Once again, your diminished reading comprehension skills have led you to a faulty conclusion.
Yes, the expression “smaller, less intrusive government” does ring a bell. I support that concept. However, here on Earth, “smaller” does not automatically mean “nonexistant”. Why do you insist that conservatives “want to cut out ALL government”? How can you rationally make that leap?
Have you ever been to a Tea Party demo? I have seen it there. Filldirt can not make a point without being witty.
Phil Dirt –
US Taxpayer is consumed with liberal/progressive ideology that rational discourse is impossible for him/her.
Joe
Joe only says that because he can’t think of a rational thing to say. All Joe does is attack the messenger. Phil: Yes, I will concede that smaller does not mean nonexistent, but will you concede that “no government” is a Tea Party policy by some?
someone please explain to me how illegal aliens who break the law every day are. ” victims” if they do not wish to be so called victims than they should take their ass home to their own country.
I totally agree that peole who hire illegals knowingly should be charged with a felony.
I don’t care if you know or not. Off to jail! If you put knowingly on their we will have the wal-marts pretending they didn’t know.
It’s difficult. it’s easy for illegal aliens to get identification, proof of residency, etc. to attain any job. Also, easy for employers to make the unintentional mistake (however, we all know it’s not a mistake in plenty of cases)
I’m pretty sure that when wal-mart was charged, they simply paid the fine and went on their merry way. I so desperately want employers to have responsibility, but i don’t think they should be held accountable just b/c the gov’t isn’t doing its job.
e-verify it’s free
Bs detector obviously lacks the intellect to have a discussion without resorting to name calling.
Thanks Joe, my point exactly!
Ann –
Please don’t be so hard on B.S. Detector, his positions are so weak and indefensible that it is no wonder he can’t articulate a cogent response.
And yes it’s regrettable that he resorts to insults and rudeness towards others for which he deserves our heartfelt sympathy and pity.
Joe
I cannot speak for what goes on in law enforcement in every state. However, here in Kansas it is not unusual at all for police checkpoints to be set up to check peoples drivers licenses, see if the driver is intoxicated, and so on. If Arizona were to do this and check everyone regardless of race at checkpoints, this would round up a lot of illegals. Since everyone would be checked, than no one could play the race card.
ann some people on both sides don’t read the law. In this case you are correct. For the purposes of this law as stated a drivers liscence is presumption of your legal status. My problem with this law is the following you will now have police officers bringing in and spending more time at traffic stops people because of questions of their status. While immigration reform is needed it will take police officers away from doing other tasks which is more their job. It is ashame Arizona has to do it because poloticians in BOTH parties at the federal level refuse to do their job. Building a fence is not going to solve the problem and will only create new ones. The solution is rigorous prosecutions of employers who hire them with tough mandatory minimums so that the cost of hiring them is not worth the risk. This will get many of the illegals to leave on their own as they won’t get jobs. Then perhaps round ups and raids stand a chance.
Cdev –
You bring up some very good points.
Joe
Another question. If I get pulled over without liscence am I still obliged to provide my name? can I plead the fifth since my name could incriminate me?
What’s the problem with states requiring people to obey the law. Can we all do whatever illegal thing suits our purposes. States need to enact or enforce the laws which require legal status within the states! Seems moronic to challenge such a requirement.
Any country I’ve visited requires a visa and proper documentation; without it, deportation is normal. DUH !
Obama will make illegals legal and every one against that will be labelled racist. millions and millions cross and squat and bleed social services. Tuff times right now and Americans need those jobs. The armed forces should relocate bases to the border. Guard the border as an exercize in guarding borders.
What costs us more, social services or the billions given to big businesses? Social services or the National Debt?
US Taxpayer
Milton Friedman answered it best regarding immigration and the emergence of a welfare state –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eyJIbSgdSE
Joe
Joe you are guilty of the logical fallacy of Appeal to authority to justify a claim rather than give reasons. Friedman spoke about open, unrestrained immigration. Who spoke of that?
There is a good article about the Five Myths about immigration. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/30/AR2010043001106_pf.html
US Taxpayer
Doris Meissner former Clinton Commissioner of INS who is not a supporter of enforcing immigration laws and the border fence. She is entitled to her foolish and outlandish opinions as she conflates legal immigration with illegal immigration.
Regarding Milton Friedman you miss his points altogether about the emergence of our welfare state and illegal immigration.
Joe
Joe you are attacking the messenger instead of refuting her arguments. I could point out that Friedman’s theory of the virtues of a free market economic system with little intervention by government is what caused the current meltdown in our economy. Or don’t you think the huge bailout Bush provided is a problem? Do you think big business can best regulate itself?
The real issue with this law is what means are the authorities able to use in order to catch people breaking the law. I have no doubt that almost all the people on this forum do not support the illegal aliens breaking the law. However my fear is if you give the authorities the power and ability to enforce this law in this manner, where does it stop. We can always justify it by saying “well if you’re not doing anything wrong then you don’t have anything to be worried about” however this negates our civil liberties as United States citizens and innocent till PROVEN guilty (not prove that you are innocent). Can they start checking your computer or reading your mail next? How about forcing you to take a drug test to prove you have no illegal drugs in your system. I know that these examples might be farfetched for some of you, but it might be closer to realization that people might think. I would have never thought 15yrs ago I would be searched before going into a NFL game but that’s reality now.
I would much rather see very very harsh penalties handed down to people who hire these illegal immigrants. These people are also breaking the law and need to be punished severely. If you stop the people from hiring them then the illegal’s will leave and find other areas to go for work.
On a side note, it is funny that the conservative republicans are embracing this law. The foundation of the republican party is to limit the role and power and government in daily life, not to give it more power and to have more influence.
No matter where you stand on this issue you must admit that the costs associated with this bill if it passes will be enormous. Increases in funding to law enforcement, the prison system, social services and legal services will sky rocket. Ask a law enforcement officer how much time in his day an arrest uses up, ask a corrections official where these illegals will be housed until trial (and they will get a trial), ask a social services employee where the legal children that are left behind will be placed (foster care is exorbitantly expensive), and you may begin to appreciate the cost of this bill.
The cost to enforce the law is too much.
How about the cost of:
Education
Health Care
Section 8 housing
Social Services
crime to the innocent
Mr. Jack sounds like the folks in DC, we passed a bill, noe we’ll find out what is in it.
you may want to look at this site ojjpac.org/memotial.asp
typo ojjpac.org/memorial.asp
Not the costs to enforce the law, the costs resulting from enforcing the law are what I am referring to. And it is not just financial costs to which I refer.
This whole matter is just the best fun. We are seeing two incompatible strands of the Tea Party. On one hand, they want to see this law in effect in Arizona, as well as in Maryland if McDonough has his way.
This law will cost Arizona (and Maryland if enacted) millions to increase jail capacity, hire more law enforcement, prosecute illegals, and defend itself against the frivolous lawsuits that will inevitably occur as the local Arian Nation or KKK starts to sue the police because they feel they are not doing enough. Usually one cannot sue a municipal government, but this law specifically allows it. To pay for this, taxes will need to be increased. Hey, a police state is not cheap.
On the other hand, they will hit the wall when the tax bill comes. So which wing of the Tea Party will have its way? The “get those illegals at any cost” wing or the “our taxes are too high and we can’t afford a government” wing. I can’t wait to see. I predict that Arizona will become a Blue state as all the Latinos, as well as real Republicans and Independents all vote Democratic.
US Taxpayer –
It’s Aryan not Arian. Arianism deals with the concept of the divinity of Christ.
If you are going to malign folks please get your terms right.
Joe
OK Aryan. Got any facts to counter my thoughts. No, you just attack the messanger as usual. You have not posted any meaningful thoughts.
US Taxpayer
I was kindly pointed out the difference between Arian an Ayan, unless of course you were talking about the divinity of Christ?
Joe
Thank you Joe. I’m still waiting for a thought.
100% Agree with you Mr Jack………. the truth is here but we will never agree to it “South Carolina’s lieutenant governor said Friday that lazy residents who don’t want to take jobs harvesting the state’s crops are the root of its problems with illegal immigration.” http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jZdf0KfLj6ol5EBOEsrJq5rU_SrQD9F95SRG0
Johnny C: I hate to tell you this but we have been there for years. Bush illegally read your emails and listened to your phone calls. “President Bush directed the National Security Agency to secretly eavesdrop on American citizens, he transferred an authority previously under the purview of the Justice Department to the Defense Department and bypassed the very laws put in place to protect Americans against widespread government eavesdropping. The reason may have been to tap the NSA’s capability for data-mining and widespread surveillance.” http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/12/nsa_and_bushs_i.html
US Taxpayer = Left Wing Ideologue = Obama = Reid = Sharpton = Waxman = Dodd = Perlosi = Enoughs enough….
US Taxpayer = Simple enough for you to understand?
How about this US Taxpayer? You have diarrhea of the mouth – everything you say is the same old tired liberal Shxt.
As far as I’m concerned my job of this site is to weed out weeds like you.
US Taxpayer
Do you have a job or have you been sucking on the Government tit since day one?
Your pathetic…
Braveheart say something intelligent. You sound as if you are still in 7th grade.
US Taxpayer
Answer a question for a change.
What branch of Government do you work for?
Or, are you an excuse for a Teacher?
What is your favorite type of Government Cheese?
“career combatant of “illegal aliens,”” gee Brian… what a fair and unbiased article you’ve written… I suspect if you agreed with him he’d be “a staunch supporter of Immigration equality”
Why a new law when we already have federal law? Just ask your State employee (cops & Sheriff) to follow the Federal law, whats this fuss all about? Why pass a new state law? This is what I cannot understand. Sheriff Joe Arpaio has been doing it for years, I guess
Gov Jan Brewer did it cuzz she wanted to look tougher then Sheriff Joe Arpaio. You know what? Because Sheriff Joe Arpaio is going to run for Arizona Gov Jan Brewer as Republican Primary. Its all politics! No one cares you you, America or the illegals….. Its all about the Votes! And ever other politicians is just following the Craze……. What do you have to say? Please use your brain…… illegal Mexicans (but then they were the legal ones) where here before America (USA) and they will be hear after we all die! Use your brain and write something innovative!
This is all bullshit, where did u get that Sheriff Joe Arpaio is going to run against Gov Jan Brewer for Arizona Republican Primary. Any proof?
Eva Its true, Here is the link..
“Controversial Arizona sheriff considers run for governor’s seat”
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/30/controversial-arizona-sheriff-consider-runs-for-governors-seat/?fbid=l8T_6fsHBNh
I have a serious question. As we all know the healthcare bill passed. When it goes into affect, would the IRS not al ready know who is legal and who is an illegal alien? They could report this to the appropriate authorities, or people without insurance or proof of citizenship. Could illegals not be arrested if they go to a hospital? It is my understanding that once the healthcare bill goes into full effect, someone going to an emergency room will need to be insured to receive healthcare. The feds could implement something like this, that is if they ever intend on upholding the immigration laws.
Great idea. Let’s discourage people from making decisions in their children’s best interest. No one will ever be turned away from a hospital ED. The idea that an illegal will be arrested if they take their legal children to one for care is just about the worst idea I have heard on this issue.
In all of this discussion, and I personally have mixed feelings about the the issue, what is being lost is the issue of kids. Only in the case of serious neglect or abuse is it in the best interest of children to be removed from their parents. In many cases even after removal the kids are placed with relatives. In the scenario of an illegal parent taking a child for health care and being arrested, most likely any relatives are also illegal and not a viable resource. So the kids go into foster care and are raised in the system. This is a spectacular lose/lose situation. The kids lose out big time and the state pays through the nose.
Not saying I have the answer, mind you, but ED immigration police is not it.
This guy is a first class idiot.
The United States is the only country that would make a law to attempt to forbid someone from speaking another language and attempting gestapo-like tactics to arrest illegals. I fear for this country with jerks like this guy in power.
Gb111 –
Well let’s not mis-characterize the English First legislation would not as you stated “forbid someone from speaking another language”. 28 States already have English as their official language.
Besides the article is about proposing new “Arizona style” immigration legislation in Maryland.
Joe
Joe: if someone spoke another language they could be harassed by the local police under this “’Arizona style’ immigration legislation in Maryland.” Explain why they would not.
Here is another example of mis-information on purpose. THE ARIZONA LAW STATES THAT A PERSON HAS TO BE STOPPED OR PULLED OVER FOR AN OFFENSE, AND THAN AND ONLY THAN CAN THE POLICE ASK FOR IDENTIFICATION. THIS IS THE EXACT SAME LAW THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT HAS ON THE BOOKS. BUT BARRACK WILL NOT ENFORCE IT.
US taxpayer
People who speak another language can be harassed today irrespective of implementation of “Arizona style” immigration legislation in Maryland or the Arizona SB1070.
SB1070 assists Arizona law enforcement (police and county attorneys) comply with and assist in the enforcement of federal immigration laws.
Here is what Kris Kobach said in an NY Times Op-Ed about SB1070.
http://tiny.cc/ur3nz
Joe
True but it is a state right and not a federaal power as some suggest. If Puerto Rico applies and is granted State Hood as is being kicked around their language is Spanish
Cdev –
We could have a federal law making English our official language and States like Louisiana could continue to have English and French their official languages.
Joe
Joe what section of the Constitution allows for that?
Cdev
Article 1 Section 7 would allow congress to pass a bill to make English our official language.
Joe
Again Joe acts as if he knows what he is talking about but does not. Article 1, Section 7 deals with REVENUE NOT ENGLISH. I don’t think you have answered the question.
“Article 1 – The Legislative Branch
Section 7 – Revenue Bills, Legislative Process, Presidential Veto
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.”
One of the reasons states like California and Arizona are broke is they are paying for healthcare and education for the Illegal Aliens which run in the billions. And not to do anything is a crime in itself. I have never been to Arizona but when a farmer is killed by drug runners or illegals on his own land and the gov’t still won’t do anything,that too is a crime. And this is a DAILY occurrence. Also I guess no of the liberals read about the deputy who was shot by…OH yea illegals. In fact 17 of them were caught. And by the way go to the Bel Air MVA and you will find a lot of Illegals up there attempting to get an ID. And these same people sometimes get licenses and when they get into accidents,a lot of times they dont have insurance. Who do you think pays for that…YOU and YOUR insurance company. Just some thoughts.
how do you know that the people at MVA are illegals? because they don’t look like you? Maybe you should ask them for their papers.
The people who do not have health insurance are paid for by “YOU and YOUR insurance company” and I have not heard the Tea Party complain about that. They think requiring people to buy health insurance are “socialistic”. You cannot have it both ways folks. Explain how this is different.
I agree, and in no way am I asking to have it both ways. Again, I very plainly stated that I’m against racial profiling.
That is JB who wants it both ways.
because if you talk to people like I don’t know the police who are getting intel from federal law enforcement, u would know that illegals are going to states like the socialist republic of Maryland and getting their ID’s. As for having it both ways what are you talking about? I simply stated that when illegals are obtaining their drivers license and are driving they majority of the time do not have auto insurance and if they are at fault u have to sue them in civil court to collect. They may be charged but a criminanl judge cannot make them pay for repairs. And so who ends up paying for the repairs, you. We also pay through our taxes for illegals health insurance and for their children to go to school. And by the way CISCO AND US TAXPAYER, I notice no comment from both of you with regards to the rest of my statement about the farmer and the cop. Oh that’s right you haven’t got that far in your liberal handout on how to respond to FACTS!!!
Not many stories on the policeman/border guard that was shot yesterday by illegals at the border. It seems the government will wait till they have to call in the National guard to quell civil diobediance by illegals protesting and or Americans tired of watching the invasion. The Rise of China and India, and The Fall of America.
we are getting screwed by both the dems and reps leaders on this issue. Dems do not want to upset a huge voting block. How Repbs back greedy companies who want slave labor. So the issue goes mostly unaddressed how the problem esculates. Illegals do not want to be second class citiZens but they really are. They either work crappy jobs for a very low wage or break the law and still
an Americans identity to get a better one.
The real reason there is no reform is because the “Hell no” party refuses to do anything. Tea Baggers need to contact their Republican representatives and for cooperation in dealing with a very real issue. Don’t complain about a lack of reform when it is your party that is stopping it.
“Immigration Reform 2010 Outline – Democrats have been working hard to get an overhaul on immigration reform but they are doing with no republican support. Senator Lindsey Graham is still retaining his support and not proceeding forward to help out democrats.”
web site references removed by Dagger
ask for copperation
The reason congress is not working on immigration reform can be traced directly to the Tea Party. William Gheen Americas for Legal Immigration at a Tea Party event on April 20, 2010, conducted a vile, vicious personal attack on Senator Graham because he strayed from the Tea Bag party purity test. What was Senator Graham’s sin? He tried to lobby other Republicans to sponsor a comprehensive immigration bill.
The Republicans have even derailed their own President George W. Bush who attempted comprehensive reform but failed when his own party split over the issue. So put the blame where it belongs: Tea Party Republicans!
US taxpayer =
Tea Party is made up of people from a variety of constitutional conservative political persuasions contrary to your rhetoric that it is an extension of the Republican Party.
Joe
Really! He is a Republican and was speaking at a Tea Party rally at Greenville, SC. That makes him a tea party Republican.
You may try to distance these extremists from the Republican party, but that sounds like whistling through a grave yard to me. No, the Tea Party is driving the Republicans and Fox is driving the tea party.
US taxpayer, last I checked, the – as you so lovingly refer to it- “hell no party” does not hold the White House or Congress. If they couldn’t stop the health care debacle they certainly couldn’t stop whatever immigration fiasco to bolster the democratic party the current regime would force through… so how exactly is the “hell no” party gumming up the works? Why won’t you spread some of the blame to the shining democrats? And before you make up your mind about me, I think all politicians suck.
150 fillibusters since 2008!
Yes, but now it’s 2010. The dems have control – your guys I assume – and before losing Kennedy’s seat they were filibuster proof. They’ve already forced health care against the majority of citizens. What is holding them back now? There’s no easy win… push back on illegals and lose that important voting bloc. Side with them and lose big in November. They won’t do anything because both parties are lying dirtbag politicians. They’re probably all weighing a few dead in Arizona vs. votes in November. The whole partisan thing no longer makes sense when “my guys” are just as bad as “the other guys”. Just out of curiosity, do you keep numbers on the dem filibusters or just those hateful ?
Yes, but now it’s 2010. The dems have control – your guys I assume – and before losing Kennedy’s seat they were filibuster proof. They’ve already forced health care against the majority of citizens. What is holding them back now? There’s no easy win… push back on illegals and lose that important voting bloc. Side with them and lose big in November. They won’t do anything because both parties are lying dirtbag politicians. They’re probably all weighing a few dead in Arizona vs. votes in November. The whole partisan thing no longer makes sense when “my guys” are just as bad as “the other guys”. Just out of curiosity, do you keep numbers on the dem filibusters or just the accursed opposition?
not my guys I am an independent. You can still have a fillibuster it just requires a cloture vote which requires 60 votes for. A cloture vote must be loged 3 days prior to the vote! so by staging a fillibuster and forcing a cloture vote you get to waste 3 days with mindless nonsense and nothing gets done. Both sides are guilty of it The fillibuster was used 15 times in the 1800’s and has been used by both parties over 1,000 times since the 1990’s. These are just stalling techniques and keeps anything good from happening!
Any law that supports racial profiling is wrong. The current status of our country’s immigration laws is pathetic, thus something needs to change. Legal immigration is fine, after all, we are all decendants of immigrants who came to this country for a variety of reasons.
Illegal aliens are anyone (regardless of race) who enters this country illegally. Why are folks suddenly branded “racists” by so-called advocacy groups (i.e. CASA) if they take a viewpoint that opposes illegal immigration? Being against illegal immigration does not make you a racist! Citizens of this country s/expect all illegal aliens who were criminals in their country of origin to be denied entry into the U.S. and be subject to immediate deportation if arrested here.
For too long employers have been a big cause of this illegal immigration problem. Employers looking to boost profits use illegal aliens as a source of cheap labor. Unfortunately, these folks get zero benefits, work in unsafe conditions and usually do not pay taxes because they are paid off-the-books. This is the problem plain and simple. Start prosecuting employers with harsh $ fines and jail sentences if they engage in such practices. Take away the incentive for anyone to enter this country illegally.
I hope the illegal immigration issue can be resolved without finger pointing and name calling.
Don’t forget, those employers hiring illegals as cheap labor to boost profits aren’t paying taxes either.
Mcat105 –
We should prosecute businesses that break the law.
Joe
So you are saying that the Arizona law is flawed?
US Taxpayer
Why don’t you actually read SB1070 and you’d see that it does have provisions regarding employers?
Joe
It may but not anything more then a slap on the wrist.
I’m hispanic (American born U.S. citizen) and was transferred to MD by my employer (Fed Gov’t)in 2004. Since being here, I’ve experienced racism on many levels. Believe me, it’s quite painful and there’s nothing that can be done about it, except to ignore it. So, basically, I keep to myself and don’t participate or attend many of the local events. What McDonough is intending to do will only make it worse. I’m not against immigration reform, but to implement a law based on a shoot-from-the-hip, knee-jerk reaction that singles out hispanics is quite disturbing. Too bad McDonough can’t walk in my shoes for a week or two, then maybe he’d rethink legalizing racial profiling.
That is why all people who still believe in the real American way should vote Democratic. It’s Republicans like McDonough that cater to the fringe groups that are destroying what this Republic stands for. We are a democratic country and if you do not vote you cannot complain about nut jobs like McDonough.
I’m a registered Republican and have been for years (surprising, isn’t it?). However, I’m rethinking how I’ll be voting this November and in 2012. I’ve always had a tremendous amount of respect for Senator McCain, but was very disappointed to hear that he backed Jan Brewer’s law as is. BTW, I’m originally from AZ. Crime associated with illegal immigrants is a huge problem in AZ – I’ve seen it first hand. Sadly, those problems overshadow the honest, hardworking immigrants being exploited by businesses throughout the U.S. and working here in back-breaking jobs with long hours, no benefits and for wages much less than what a U.S. citizen would accept and then, being treated like dirt. My heart goes out them. I saw Obama in a new light when he spoke up about the new immigration law. I’m counting on him to make some changes. Jan Brewer’s law was not very well thought out and nothing more than a political ploy. We do need immigration reform, but not laws that primarily target hispanics and legalizes racial profiling.
Mcat105 –
SB1070 http://tiny.cc/852le very well written and mirrors federal laws. SB1070 targets no particular ethnic group.
Joe
joe;
the law was written to target Hispanics, after all I don’t think Arizona borders Mexico and most illegals are coming from the south. The law was then changed and revised to appear to be less targeted on Hispanics, but the truth is that its intent is anti-hispanic and anti-inmigrant. Go back and read post 24 and you will see the bias and targeted JB spoke about in talking about the legal status of Hispanics at the MVA.
If we just enforce the laws on the books, illegals won’t be able to get a job here. Employers have the authority to ask for legal status, but my govt that I pay taxes and have a natural birthright to demand not to ask me for anything that proves I am legal just as You don’t have to prove your legal status.
You’re entitled to your opinion; however, I don’t believe it’s very well written at all. It’s extremely subjective and automatically gives the authorities the use of reasonable doubt, at any level (i.e., if you have tan skin, that’s enough reason for them to stop and harrass you). It will only lead to further abuse of authority. If you haven’t every experienced it, then you can’t really say you completely understand.
Cisco –
I regularly must provide identification to federal and state authorities. And you also must regularly prove your identity.
When I travel Mexico, Spain and Canada I am required to prove I am a US citizen legally in their country.
Just because many of the illegal aliens in Arizona are Latino does not make SB1070 unconstitutional or ant-Latino.
Joe
Mcat105 –
I think you are supremely mistaken about the simplicity are careful drafting of SB1070. And regarding “Reasonable Suspicion” we have decades of case law on what it means.
Joe
Joe, I understand your point clearly; however, you’re missing the point. JB’s law was passed after an illegal immigrant from Mexico allegedly killed an AZ rancher. Very sad, but now, and as a result of this new law, anyone who appears to be of Hispanic origin (U.S. citizen or not) can automatically be asked for proof of citizenship. I agree whole-heartedly that there’s been a problem with immigration reform, but is this the most effective way to attack the problem? Too bad, Obama focused all of his efforts behind passing health reform and ignored immigration reform among other important issues. However, I am glad to hear that he’s against JB’s law and I’m hoping that he will do something.
Mcat105 –
While President Obama and congress may be forced to secure our borders and develop immigration reform because of SB1070, however they can do little to stop the State of Arizona a sovereign entity that has guaranteed constitutional protections.
What is lost on you is that SB1070 is simply a common sense way to safely protect the citizens of Arizona and provide local law enforcement a practical way to deal with illegal aliens who are in fact breaking immigration law by being in Arizona illegally.
Joe
Joe says “And regarding “Reasonable Suspicion” we have decades of case law on what it means.”
Are you a judge Joe? Can you site one case where reasonalbe suspican was defined? Can you define each?
US Taxpayer –
Terry v. Ohio http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=392&invol=1
Joe
Joe: Where does this define the difference better Cause and suspicion?
Tom Ridge, former governor and U.S. homeland security chief, dislikes Arizona’s immigration law. He singled out the lack of a tougher requirement for probable cause before police question someone’s status.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2010/04/tom_ridge_former_governor_and.html
You know better Joe?
What is really needed is immigartion reform from Washington.
Joe says “I regularly must provide identification to federal and state authorities. And you also must regularly prove your identity. When I travel Mexico, Spain and Canada I am required to prove I am a US citizen legally in their country.”
First of all, I have lived here almost 70 years and I have never been asked to show identification by federal and state authorities without CAUSE (legally defined). To say you have is a red herring.
Secondly, Arrizona is the FIRST sate to do so. “While police demands of documents are common on subways, highways and in public places in some countries, including France, Arizona is the first state to demand that immigrants meet federal requirements to carry identity documents legitimizing their presence on American soil” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html
As I said, what is really needed is immigration reform.
US Taxpayer –
What’s your point?
Law enforcement must have reasonable suspicion to request identification and in airports everyone must provide identification if you want to fly.
Joe
No Joe. Police must have PROBABLE CAUSE. I will again post the Fourth Amendment: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
US Taxpayer
Reasonable suspicion meets the requirements of the Fourth Amendment.
Joe
Joe says “Reasonable suspicion meets the requirements of the Fourth Amendment.” However, the former Republican Tom Ridge, former governor and U.S. homeland security chief does not feel that this is so. Joe, give it up you will not convince anyone that your argument has merit.
Mcat105:
The reason congress is not working on immigration reform can be traced directly to the Tea Party. William Gheen Americas for Legal Immigration at a Tea Party event on April 20, 2010, conducted a vile, vicious personal attack on Senator Graham because he strayed from the Tea Bag party purity test. What was Senator Graham’s sin? He tried to lobby other Republicans to sponsor a comprehensive immigration bill.
The Republicans have even derailed their own President George W. Bush who attempted comprehensive reform but failed when his own party split over the issue.
So put the blame where it belongs: Tea Party Republicans!
Joe, In a perfect law enforcement world “reasonable suspicion” would work. Have you ever experienced racism? It’s downright ugly. I’ve never been one to play the race card and in fact, very opposed to that way of thinking. I don’t have a Spanish accent (wish I did), but I can’t help but be concerned for those who are U.S. citizens that do have one, that will soon be subject to harassment based on “reasonable suspicion”. Just looking at the sign held up by McDounough that says “speak English!” doesn’t mean don’t speak French, German, Chinese or Italian; it means don’t speak Spanish. His sign alone, incites racism.
Mcat105 –
You write – “McDounough that says “speak English!” doesn’t mean don’t speak French, German, Chinese or Italian; it means don’t speak Spanish. His sign alone, incites racism.”
I say – It is untrue and you are playing the “race card”.
Joe
Joe, you don’t know me and on top of that, you’re sadly mistaken. I’m not playing the race card but then again, I don’t have to prove anything to you. The message on McDonoughs sign is very clear – no Spanish allowed! The undertones by which the recent law passed and the way it was brought to light, does blatantly wreak racism. You never answered my question. Have you ever experienced racism i.e., 10 fingers held up to your face to represent the cost of $10 dollars, or being told out of the blue to go back where you came from. Again, I don’t have an accent, not even a hint of one and this was how I was treated because of the color of my skin. These are only two examples of what I’ve had to deal with while in MD. So am I supposed to be seen, not heard, and not speak up in this forum so that someone like you won’t think that I’m playing the race card? NOT! JB’s recent knee-jerk reaction to immigration reform which casts “reasonable suspicion” towards ALL Hispanics is unconsitutional and opens up an avenue for racism towards Hispanics to be an accepted practice.
Mcat105 –
You use the accusation of racism as a weapon against those with whom you disagree.
Pat McDonough believes in having a society where we can communicate with one another. English First http://englishfirst.org/englishfirst/ is an important movement that unites our country. There is nothing racist about having English as the official language of a county or state, especially since 28 states have English as their official language already.
Joe
You’re old school Joe and you need to get off of your high horse, Joe. You’re missing the point again. It’s a free country. If I wanted to speak Spanish to my brother in public, then why should that be against the law. I’m certainly not going to speak Spanish to someone that doesn’t understand, and maybe it’s none of your business what I’m saying to my brother. No different than whispering in someone’s ear. McDonough’s racial biases are very clear in the sign he’s holding up. BTW, you never answered any of the questions I asked you in previous postings. Bottomline, I’m an American citizen and I don’t believe that I should have to prove that I am, just because of the color of my skin. Goodbye Joe.
Mcat105 –
If you’re are a citizen of course you may need to provide proof.
You can speak any language you want with anyone you want. We already condition US citizenship upon basic English proficiency. What we don’t want is to have government or business be required to communicate in languages other than English. English is the glue that unifies us as a nation.
You keep trying to conflate language with ethnicity to make your racism argument. Your argument is faulty and misleading.
Joe
pat mcdonough has portrayed himself to be racist.
Mcat105 –
Give some examples of Delegate McDonough’s racism.
I think you have repeatedly been the race-baiter. And just because you call people with whom you disagree a racist it does not make it true.
Joe
Joe: Nor denials not make them racists. Reasonable people would agree that “Speak English” is a race baiting slogan designed for those who tend to be xenophobic and white. So is “Save Our Nation”, “Freedom Not Fascism”, “Warning: If Brown can’t stop it, A Browning Can”, “Bring Back We the People”, a picture of the President as an African Witch doctor with a slogan “Obamacare” all of which are actual signs at a Tea Party rally.
Why wouldn’t one think the Tea Party are racists?
Yes, it does, and No, I’m not.
This law has been denounced by many conservatives also. The law is bad, its targeted to one group, although there are illegals from all races and nationalities in the country. It assumes that all Hispanics must prove their legal status. Yes, when Joe goes to Europe, he needs to prove his status. This is however, America where I am free to be me and don’t have to show my identity or legal status just because the police or authorities want it. That being in the course of any legal activity, of course.
In Europe, their citizens must have a national id card that proves their right to be there, but since Americans don’t really have such requirement, then how can you make a particular ethnic or national origin people’s have to have proof of status?
The best way to combat illegal inmigration is by having thougher penalties on companies and employers that knowingly hire illegals or hire subcontractors that hire illegals. The second best way would be for natural citizens and permanent legal residents have a national ID card and give the govt the right to ask for ID under all circumstances in the course of any day, to anyone for no reason at all. This happens in Europe all the time. Even with that, there is an illegal population problem in Spain, France and England that may be a high as that of the United States.
Cisco, I agree with everything you said. You’re right on point. Joe C. just doesn’t get it. He’s the one with the “faulty” narrow-mind perspective. He won’t ever get it because he drew the line that divides many, many years ago, and probably before our time.
Cisco and Mcat105 –
Why don’t you point out provisions within SB1070 where it picks a specific ethnicity or what part of the law is unconstitutional.
Joe
joe, I don’t really need to see the words to know the intent. Its targeted to any one, should the police have a suspiction to ask for papers. This gives the police powers to “demand” and I to show proof of legal status? They used to have this “gestapo” regime in Europe and see how well it worked out for them.
Enforcement of the laws on the books is the only way to go. Arizona (arid zone)Spanish, if you did not know, needs to go back and come up with a better enforcement tool, racial profiling only serves to perpetuate 2nd class status for parts of the population.
No joe, you and people like mcdonough are the true race baiters. As long as you’re not made to feel like a second class citizen and as long as your consitutional rights aren’t being violated everything is okay. It’s clear to see that you take no issue with the rights of other i.e., Hispanics (U.S. citizens) being violated. So, who’s the race baiter. It’s YOU and people like mcdonough!
cisco
So the answer is no you can’t show any evidence of Delegate McDonough’s racism, because none exists.
You can’t point out any provision of SB1070 that is either racist or unconstitutional.
Joe
Mcat105
You can call me anything you want, however it doesn’t make your unfounded charges true.
Joe
Joe: Tu Quoque
joe, sounds like you’re doing a bit of whining now. it was you who accused me of using the race card and then, called me a race baiter first.
Mcat105
Your comments speak for themselves.
Joe
as do yours….
Or immigration reform by Washington. Don’t hold your breath!
Mcat105 –
Brilliant repartee!
Joe
Joe is a master of Tu Quoque arguments. Instead of proving a point, he asks you to disprove it. He is short on facts and large on attacks.
Ooh, someone learned how to Google!
However, same someone doesn’t understand tu quoque. A more accurate description would be ‘A retort accusing one’s accuser of the same offense’, or to simplify it for US taxpayer, ‘You, too’.
Filldirt: You should try it.
As usual, your response makes no sense.
I heard on the news last night that a national identification card for all Americans might be coming out. It would have the Americans fingerprint on file. This would make it harder to steal an Americans identity, and harder to make a fake Identification. Employeers would have to have this persons national identification on record in order to hire someone. This would not be racial profiling and would cut way down on all illegal aliens. I am all for it!
I’m so glad everyone is getting along.
joe you should consider to changing your name to dick.
cisco –
It is unfortunate for you that your weak positions are causing you distress and frustration, however you shouldn’t get mired in self-flagellation over it.
Joe
Did you know that a lot of the vehicles the BORDER PATROL use are armored vehicles. To me that is a clue that there are problems on the border. And once again no one is talking about the cop or farmer that were shot. And by shear luck they were reported unlike thousand of other cases that aren’t. What the people of ARIZONA said to the gov’t is we are tired of asking for help and since you don’t want to help, we are going to handle the problem ourselves. Good for them!! I am tired of my taxes being raised by both the republicans and democrats. I am tired of being the world police, helping every country that is hit by catastrophies and all they do is complain how we are stuck up. This is the greates country in the world. I have served this country both in the military and as a police officer for many years. I have seen people do things that I thought are unconscieably yet you all sleep at night peacefully knowing people like me are out their keeping you safe. And once again who is going to get blamed for this law, the POLICE, because we are easy targets. Like I tell people, if you dont like the law, change it. We enforce the law, we don’t make them. And that is what the police in Arizona are going to do, their job. If we had the problem like ARIZONA had, people would be demanding something be done. That is what the governor did, she handle the problem. Now, maybe congress will do something….LOL.
Well said JB. I thank you for your service. Stay safe out there. As I’ve said before Arizona has enacted what is to all appearances a bad law – but they’ve done it out of desperation and frustration over the inaction of the Feds. I know a deputy out west who was told to turn loose a dozen illegals he pulled over in a van on a routine stop because ICE didn’t want them. The feds – as usual – refusing to do their job. When your citizens are afraid for their lives because of out of control drug and gang violence and kidnappings and the feds won’t help you’re forced to do something. I find blind partisanship perplexing (sounds like you do too). In my opinion all politicians are lying dirtbags and all you can do is vote for the one you find the least repulsive. To violently defend any politician or party as if they are some shining beacon of goodness just seems misguided. So much of the angry insulting rhetoric I’ve seen here is just pathetic. As far as “speak English”, my wife’s first language is not English and she doesn’t use it with her friends – but she learned it to function in an English speaking country just like her friends have learned German, Italian, or what ever else was needed based on where they live. No one is saying don’t speak any other language, but don’t expect the world to learn yours because you’re too damned lazy to learn the local language.
joe, my point exactly!!
cisco –
Please stop your self-abuse, it’s embarrassing for you.
Joe
joe, I didn’t know you cared so much.
What kind of pathetic crap post is that? Go back to 8th grade.
Actually, I agree with Cisco’s recommendation to Joe. Read on and you’ll see why.
Excellent suggestion 🙂
It is apparent that even Arizonans dislike this bill. Mayor Phil Gordon of Phoenix declared last Friday that his city is considering filing suit against the state, claiming the bill is unconstitutional. In an op-ed in the Washington Post, Mayor Gordon denounced SB 1070 and called on the Phoenix City Council to sue the state. Gordon described the situation in Arizona as “humiliating” and not indicative of a “free-thinking, hospitable state capable of balancing great natural beauty and cultures of all sorts.” He also said that “the bill is the product of a “far-right legislature”; that it is unconstitutional; and that it is motivated by “the vocal, spiteful few” who are “bitter, small-minded and full of hate.” Gordon and others vow to challenge the law’s constitutionality “because of the civil rights being violated and the vagueness of the statute.” Colorado Democratic Rep. Jared Polis compares the law with Nazi Germany prior to the Holocaust and says he fears “Arizona is headed for a police state.” http://www.neutralsource.org/content/blog/detail/1505/
I think we should not interfere and allow this bill to become law. I would also pull federal border patrols and ICE from the state. Since they think they can do a better job, I say “go for it!” In the end, the state will bankrupt itself and turn Blue. All people, and especially Hispanics, in the US will see Tea Party Republicans for what they are.
Mayor Phil Gordon of Phoenix is mayor of the kidnapping capital of the US… second in the world only to Mexico City itself. I will keep that record of success in mind while I ponder his remarks. Colorado Democratic Rep. Jared Polis is a Colorado Democratic Rep. therefore his opinion while agreeable to some is irrelevant. What happens in Arizona is none of his concern. Again, Arizona has enacted a bad law (which probably won’t survive the first constitutionality test) out of desperation. Obviously this rancher that was murdered was dear to someone in power and it’s a shame the murders of many illegals and common folk didn’t spark action before. If this forces the Federal Government to finally pull it’s collective head out of it’s a** and take a stand and do something it was worth it. As far as pulling the border patrol and ICE… with millions already here and thousands coming in every month do you think they’ll notice? There are folks sitting in their home countries today dreaming of coming to the US. The State Department turns them away daily. Many are highly skilled technical or medical types. Meanwhile, unskilled illegals are allowed to parade across the southern border and take up residence here all the while being defended by those like yourself who call yourselves fair. How is this fair? What do I say to those who can’t visit me on a tourist visa because some Embassy wonk says no… well if you were in Mexico you could be here now and there would be folks ready to jump in front of a bus to defend your being here.
fedup: I guess you are saying we need immigration reform?
By immigration reform, do you mean amnesty? That’s not reform.
What we need is enforcement of all existing Federal immigration laws and an end to anchor babies by any means necessary (Constitutional amendment, legislation, etc.) How much simpler could it be?
Well, if your tea party didn’t stop any chance of refrom we could get something passed.
reform
US – I’m not a member of the TEA Party and have never attended any of their gatherings. Along with that error, you also neglected to mention your idea of reform. Put in another quarter and try again.
Immigration reform? The frickin border is hemorrhaging illegal immigrants! What’s the point in thinking about reform? How can you enforce any product of reform when the illegals keep flooding in? The fed won’t do it’s job and the pols on both sides won’t risk ticking off a voting bloc. We have borders for a reason. Have you ever dealt with ICE? I have. When they were INS. You filled out all the paperwork, wrote your check (and here I thought my taxes paid this stuff) and they promised you’d hear from them within 6 months! 6 months! Oh sure, they have my confidence…
To reform the illegal alien problem you need to remove the incentive for coming here. You can do this by locking up the americans who provide the incentive (jobs) then when the illegals leave and stop coming you can begin removing the rest.
Phil: That you have never attended a Tea Party explains a lot about your arguments. Perhaps you should before you defend them.
But you have a point about what I consider reform. Some of the changes I believe in are:
• U.S. employers should maintain a legal workforce by verifying the employment eligibility of their workers.
• Allow the 11 million undocumented immigrants now living in fear of deportation to begin a process that will result in legal status and a normal life without fear of being torn from their family. Once the family backlogs are clear, assumed to be eight years, legalizing immigrants will be able to petition for permanent resident status. Eligibility will be determined by criteria similar to what has been included in previous reform bills—acquiring English language skills, paying taxes, passing criminal background and security checks, and paying taxes.
• Provide a meaningful number of visas for lower-skilled immigrants who will be able to come on a special temporary, three-year visa for non-seasonal, non-agricultural workers. This visa is renewable once. The number of visas available will adjust up and down depending on what is happening in the economy.
• Current temporary worker programs will have strengthened worker protections, and the agricultural worker program (H-2A) will be reformed in accordance with the agreement between farm worker advocates and farmers enshrined in AgJOBS.
• The proposal starts off with a discussion of “triggers” that must be met during the eight years that legalizing immigrants are in provisional status before they adjust to permanent status. The triggers include an increase in the Border Patrol, ICE worksite enforcement inspectors, technology and infrastructure on the border, increased immigration court resources, and other items.
• A new method of employment verification that involves a Social Security card with a biometric identifier. The card will contain a photograph and another biometric identifier, and will be able to identify the individual without an employer having to access a central database (though work authorization would be verified by on-line database).
• Increased numbers of Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) officers;
• Increased numbers of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents to combat smuggling; ICE worksite enforcement inspectors; and ICE document fraud detection officers;
• Increased personnel to inspect for drugs, contraband and illegal immigrants;
• Improved technology, infrastructure, and resources to assist CBP and ICE;
• Increased resources to prosecute smugglers and unauthorized border crossers; and
• Increased immigration court resources
• ICE needs a transfer policy with greater clarity of purpose and protections against abuse.
• To address deprivation of access to counsel, new facilities should be located where there is a significant immigration bar or legal services community.
Sadly, this debate on this reform cannot start because of vile, malicious personal Tea Party attacks. The party of “hell no” will not consider any form of legislation no matter how import it is for our citizens. At least let this legislation see the light of day so it can be debated rather than curse the dark.
You say:
****Sadly, this debate on this reform cannot start because of vile, malicious personal Tea Party attacks. The party of “hell no” will not consider any form of legislation no matter how import it is for our citizens. At least let this legislation see the light of day so it can be debated rather than curse the dark.***
So politicians are now so thin skinned as to be deterred by personal attacks? So according to you, my in-laws who we haven’t seen in 6 years because the State Department won’t grant a tourist visa are just out of luck and the millions that crossed the border illegally are to be clasped to the bosom and granted legal status just because they’re here. Incidentally, they have to pay $100 US to apply for a visa and I have to assume all that goes to whoever is the current political toadie ambassador. Oddly enough I have a concern about the fairness of this idea. Most people are clueless about this stuff and anyone with confidence in the State Department or ICE has never dealt with them.
US TAxpayer wrote: “Sadly, this debate on this reform cannot start because of vile, malicious personal Tea Party attacks.”
I completely agree. The attacks on TEA Partiers are vicious, unfounded, racist and homophobic. I am very glad that we can agree on this point.
BTW, your cut and paste skills are admirable!
Well Phil do you have any ideas of your own? You asked for mine but all you can do is make stupid remarks. You may think you are cute, but you are merely irritating.
Phil: What attacks on the Tea Party? Again you are making AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT statements without proof. Here is the link, as well as my earlier post about this attack.
“William Gheen Americas for Legal Immigration at a Tea Party event on April 20, 2010, conducted a vile, vicious personal attack on Senator Graham because he strayed from the Tea Bag party purity test. What was Senator Graham’s sin? He tried to lobby other Republicans to sponsor a comprehensive immigration
bill.
http://www.mayomo.com/77144-lindsey-graham-being-called-out-at-the-greenville-tea-party
As you can see from this video it is the Tea Party that made the attack.
US Taxpayer = Mouth of Liberal Elite = Obama = Davis Axelrod = Valarie Jarrett = Nancy Perlosi = the Reverand Al Sharpton = SAME OLD LIBERAL WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION SOCIAL EQUALITY LIBERAL CRAP.
US Taxpayer – Once again – what branch of government pays you?
What is it about the idea of social equality that upsets you so?
In order to answer that, he would need to know your definition of social equality.
Billy Jack
Depends on your definition of social equality. If your definition of social equality means that the laws and taxes are equally applied to the population, then I’m all for it.
However, when government dumbs down public school curriculums so all kids can keep up or makes games “fair” so that there are no losers than I have a problem with it. It is simply not reality.
Braveheart: This is known as “Leave No Child Behind” and is a law by George W. Bush. Why are you against this all of a sudden? This is another example of you shooting off your mouth without thinking.
I happen to agree with you that this was a bad law.
As always, US Taxpayer, you are close but wrong. The title is “No Child Left Behind”, and we all know that the President does not write laws. That is the responsibility of Congress, and the primary sponsor of this act in Congress was Sen. Ted “I’ve got the next round” Kennedy.
Of course, if Kennedy was the driving force behind it, no wonder it’s a wreck.
Phil…
You too are close but wrong. Check your facts.
The bill was originally proposed by President Bush in 2001.
http://www2.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/execsumm.html
Wow — The “Cornerstone of his administration”.
No wonder it’s a wreck.
Jim, as stated in your link, “The NCLB Act, which reauthorizes the ESEA, incorporates the principles and strategies proposed by President Bush”. This is not inconsistent with my previous statement.
I repeat, the President does not create laws or acts. The act was enacted by Congress (as are all laws and acts), and Ted Kennedy was the chief sponsor.
Phil….
Repeat yourself all you want, it does not change the fact that the Executive summary of the bill from the US Department of education specifically states that the bill was proposed by Pres. bush. He touted it as the “cornerstone” of HIS administration… and that HE “secured passage of the bill”.
You’re just making yourself look like more of a buffoon by trying to justify an argument once you’ve been proven wrong. Suck it up and admit that you jumped on someone else for being wrong and instead you yourself were incorrect.
Or….continue arguing and make yourself look and sound like an arrogant ass who can’t admit that he’s not always right.
Jim,
Have you looked into this? Not that I won’t take any opportunity to bash ANY politician (they do all suck you know)… but it would appear that Bush “proposed” the idea but Ted and Rep. George Miller “sponsored” it in Congress. “Sponsor” is the key word here since you need to be a member of Congress… the House I suppose (hence the need for the Rep.)… The bill enjoyed wide bi-partisan support but the law itself failed to succeed when funding wasn’t delivered as promised which apparently was Bush’s fault. See? Everybody gets bashed and everybody is happy!
George W. Bush proposed this wide reaching reform. He championed the cause and pushed it through congress. He took credit for major education reform throughout his administration.
Check out his archives:
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/education/
While the law had to be enacted by the legislative brance, HE created the framework of this bill building upon work his father started in the late 90s.
He then did not follow through with enough funding to make the reform effective, instead leaving the local school juristictions to figure out how to reach federal mandates without any support from the federal government…Ultimately hurting the students.
Yes. That’s what I said. And since it enjoyed wide bi-partisan support they all get to share in the blame… pass a crappy law/underfund it. Why is it so hard to share out the blame… I’m the ultimate non-partisan because I realize all politicians are just lying dirt bag lawyers underneath. This is fun.
Braveheart: Is this a class project for you?
US Taxpayer,
My project is point out that you are a mouth piece for the Free Lunch Wagon.
You are mouth piece for Obama, Frank, Perlosi, Waxman, Boxer, Reid, Sharpton, Jackson, Clinton, Wright, Ayers, Van Jones, Dodd, Rangel.
You are as disingenuous as Obama himself.
You are either a child of the welfare state or a government employee who doesn’t know the meaning of risk and work.
You are a leech.
Braveheart writes “My project is point out that you are a mouth piece for the Free Lunch Wagon. You are mouth piece for Obama, Frank, Perlosi, Waxman, Boxer, Reid, Sharpton, Jackson, Clinton, Wright, Ayers, Van Jones, Dodd, Rangel.
You are as disingenuous as Obama himself.
You are either a child of the welfare state or a government employee who doesn’t know the meaning of risk and work.
You are a leech.”
I am sorry to say you are an abject failure if that is your project. Your school house bulling name calling is NOT an argument. Usually adults frame their views in well thought out and documented arguments. When your only response is some silly name that I have seen at a Tea Party rally, you come off looking like a child.
Conservative Latinos Rethink Party Ties
BY MIRIAM JORDAN Wall Street Journal
Adam Bustos, a third-generation Mexican-American, has voted Republican since Ronald Reagan ran for president. But he has been reconsidering his party affiliation since Arizona State Gov. Jan Brewer signed the nation’s toughest immigration law last month. “I’ve been thinking I might leave the party,” said Mr. Bustos, a 58-year-old Arizona native. “A lot of my Latino Republican friends have been talking about it after this law.”
Arizona, the gift that keeps on giving.
US Taxpayer,
Read the Arizona Law and stop getting your information from Oberman, Maddow, Mathews, and John Stewart.
You are mouth piece for Obama, Frank, Perlosi, Waxman, Boxer, Reid, Sharpton, Jackson, Clinton, Wright, Ayers, Van Jones, Dodd, Rangel.
You are as disingenuous as Obama himself.
You are either a child of the welfare state or a government employee who doesn’t know the meaning of risk and work.
You are a leech.
Here is a perfect examle of the logical fallicy of ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM: An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of what is asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker’s argument.
This article was in the WALL STREET Journal, a Republican newspaper. How is it an example of a liberal source?
It’s good to see that you jumped right back on the Logic horse after getting thrown off by your ‘tu quoque’ error.
Yes Phil I looked up my logic book from my prep school debating days. But again witty repartee is not an argument.
And just because Wikipedia defines the root of this phrase does not mean you shouldn’t dig a little deeper.
Everyone seems to want this Arizona law because of crime. Yet I have yet to hear from anyone on how to curb crime.
The reason there is such lawlessness in Arizona is because the drug lords have weapons, including assault weapons. Now I have to ask you one question, where do the drug lords get their weapons? Also, why is there such a market for drugs? What does this law do to address both of these prime causes of crime?
this law is about to get tested in the judicial system. I don’t think it will stand the rigors of the Constitution. Problems abound regarding due process, probable cause and equal opportunity, or lack of it within the parameters of the Constitution. Its truly amazing how conservative values of small govt, personal rights and freedom don’t seem to matter when it becomes expedient to suit your political motives.
Too bad McDonough voted to increase Medicare funding which went to illegal immigrants. What a record to run on.
I find it amazing how people can complain about Arizona’s law when the crime rate there is so high from illegals (the second most people kidnapped in any city in the world). People love to complain and play the race card. These same people from what I have heard offer no viable alternative solution to Arizona’s problem. Most Arizonan voters want this law. Places like California are so outspoken. Maybe Arizona should have the illegal aliens that are arrested sent to California, since they pity these people so much.
Ann: see my post above.
Everyone seems to want this Arizona law because of crime. Yet I have yet to hear from anyone on how to curb crime.
The reason there is such lawlessness in Arizona is because the drug lords have weapons, including assault weapons. Now I have to ask you one question, where do the drug lords get their weapons? Also, why is there such a market for drugs? What does this law do to address both of these prime causes of crime?
I don’t think you’d like any of my ideas on curbing crime since they would involve real punishment and accountability.
I don’t believe any of us here are qualified to hazard a guess on where drug lords get their weapons but I hope you’re not about to propose that a ban would leave them unarmed.
There seems to be a market for drugs because certain types enjoy abusing themselves.
I don’t see where this law addresses these causes if crime, but I do hope it forces the fed to finally do something to address the problem of a porous border which they have ignored for decades.
Since you ask, I will tell you. The number one source for weapons that Mexican drug lords use is ARIZONA. In the past, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has shown that approximately 1% of the nation’s gun stores are the source of 57% of the firearms traced to crimes. Most high crime gun stores remain open and they are rarely inspected by federal agents: 96 of these high crime stores remain open and some that have shut down have reopened with virtually the same ownership.
Criminals obtain their weapons by getting “law-abiding gun owners” to buy them, and then shuffle them out to other criminals who use them for violence. And that’s why those laws are so important– when a police officer catches a guy for shooting someone, he just arrests that guy. Our laws don’t let the police track the gun back where it came from, all the way to the dealer who allowed all of these sales to happen.
Arizona has some of the weakest gun laws in the country and they flat out “lack common sense.” The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence (named after James Brady, Ronald Reagan’s press secretary, who was shot in an assassination attempt on Reagan) released its gun-law scorecard for each state today, and Arizona scored worse than nearly every state in the country.
If you were serious about crime in Arizona, don’t you think someone should control these weapons?
(Dagger removes web sites)
I’d fix it in Arizona so there’s no criminals left to use the weapons. Let’s start by actually punishing criminals instead of allowing pussy D.A.’s to plea bargain murder down to 3rd degree unintentional naughtiness just so they can hit the back nine. Next week the police can arrest him again. Prison isn’t overcrowded until you can’t get the door shut. Let’s have parole boards that are responsible for what the perp they turn loose on us does. People can be peaceful, law abiding, productive members of society or they can live in prison. Simple.
Fedup: come on man, what are you going to do, line them up at a wall? I also am fed up with crime. But I think we must unarm them first, and then shut down the drug need by OUR citizens. Crime is opportunistic; it goes where the profits are.
Not stand them up at a wall. Just put them in prison. When that one’s full, build another. (I said you wouldn’t like my ideas) You could close every gun dealership in Arizona and the problem will not go away. Guns will be supplied from somewhere and there doesn’t seem to be any problem getting things in from Mexico. The whole gun control thing is a bad line to take. Banning guns will not leave criminals unarmed. The moniker criminal means they are not predisposed to following laws – it’ll only leave the law abiding public defenseless. The border is porous and has been for… basically ever. The drug lords have no problem moving anything in and out of Arizona and therein lies the problem. No one can give me one good reason why the feds have not enforced the border. Every administration has avoided the issue – just as this one will. Meanwhile, justice in the U.S. goes to the highest bidder.
First of all fedup, how do you expect to bear the costs of all these prisons? Are you suggesting Arizona raise taxes?
Secondly, the reason Mexican drug lords buy their assault weapons in ARIZONA are that there are effective gun laws in Mexico and they can’t be bought there. If all states had reasonable gun laws that were enforced, there would not be any guns for criminals. Don’t you think that if Virginia would close their gun show loophole crime would decrease here? Moreover, there are NO reasons why anyone needs an assault weapon. What, are you going to hunt Bambi with an AK-45? Moreover, it has been shown that guns in the hands of ordinary citizens do NOT make them safer, but, in fact, pose a greater danger.
Thirdly, as I have previously stated we need to reform our immigration laws and it is the REPUBLICANS who are stopping it. As I stated: “The reason congress is not working on immigration reform can be traced directly to the Tea Party. William Gheen Americas for Legal Immigration at a Tea Party event on April 20, 2010, conducted a vile, vicious personal attack on Senator Graham because he strayed from the Tea Bag party purity test. What was Senator Graham’s sin? He tried to lobby other Republicans to sponsor a comprehensive immigration bill. The Republicans have even derailed their own President George W. Bush who attempted comprehensive reform but failed when his own party split over the issue. So put the blame where it belongs: Tea Party Republicans!” Reform will close the boarder, or, at least, make it less permeable.
Lastly, crime is rampant because of the thirst for drugs and the weapons these criminals can get from Arizona. I would add point three above.
If Arizona wants to raise taxes to pay for public safety that would be up to the citizens of Arizona. They seem willing to do things on their own these days. It would even mean some new jobs. Maybe they could find enough funding by pulling some of the B.S. that’s in every state’s budget – or dare I say it… money going to services for illegals. I agree with you that assault weapons are useless and I would not oppose a ban. However, if you think that the drug lords who are sitting on more money than the government of Mexico couldn’t smuggle guns in from Mexico I can’t agree with you there. It would simply be more costly and inconvenient. If they’re coming from Arizona now it’s because it’s convenient and it’s inexcusable. They’re not going to pack up shop and go away if the guns in Arizona dry up. Shut down the gun shops I don’t care.
Immigration laws do in fact need to be reformed. This is a decades old problem and the Tea Party movement is a new phenomenon. This problem has been skirted by administrations on BOTH sides. Yes, you hate Republicans with a passion… George Bush is a demon from Hell… I get that. You might be right. I don’t care. I’m not a partisan, I’m a realist. I know there’s not a politician in D.C. that I’d trust to watch my yard sale for ten minutes. Blame whoever you want to today, but blame everyone who has had a hand in the mess all along. Why does some sort of comprehensive immigration law have to be passed through Congress for the feds to do the job of closing the border? Isn’t it already their responsibility? Just put the manpower and equipment in place to close the border! But no, November is coming and they won’t upset that voting bloc… so innocents in Arizona will just have to die for votes.
Lastly, if the thirst for drugs is the problem would you legalize? After all, I don’t see much hope in the prospects of eliminating the demand. And if you would, I don’t mind as long as I get my cut – but I suspect Congress would only get richer.
US Taxpayer = Robert Gibbs = Valarie Jarrett = Van Jones = David Axelrod = Al Sharpton = ACLU = Perlosi = Reid = Frank & Beans (Dodd)= MSNBC = Dan Rather = Maddow = Mathews = Olberman
Obama = Jimmy Carter
Is that clear enough for ya US Taxpayer? My only point is to point out that you are mouth piece for the Liberal Elite that wants to socialize the Country.
Na Na Na Sticks and stones can hurt my bones….
I have known 5 illegal aliens. Australian, Russian, British, Canadian. All of them white. What are the chances that they would be stopped and asked for their identification in Arizona? We do not need redundant laws that set the precedent for vacating probable cause. We need an overhaul of the system that is not enforcing the laws already in place.
Linda McCleary
Your Caucasian illegal alien acquaintances are just as likely during a lawful police stop be required to provide identification as anyone else under Arizona SB1070.
Joe
Joe, I see you’re still here and that you still don’t get it. Arizona’s new law compromises the civil liberties of millions of people living and working in Arizona, and does nothing at all to address the real problems in that state. SB 1070 is nothing more than legalized racial profiling.
SB 1070 is an attempt to get a handle on an illegal immigrant problem that the federal government has ignored for decades. The border is a joke. Crime is rampant. Killing and kidnapping has gone on for years between illegals and now that it’s spilling over to the general population they are finally doing something about. It was racist for the state and federal governments to ignore the crimes illegals have been suffering under for years. An officer must be stopping someone for a legitimate reason and I will give officers the benefit of the doubt that they will not abuse their authority since for the most part they tend to be the best of us… it’s far more likely that when they contact ICE about someones legal standing they will be ignored. After all, ICE has done little up to this point and I don’t expect them to start making any effort now. SB 1070 was written by Arizona citizens for Arizona citizens and by all the polls is supported by a healthy majority of Arizona citizens – from all parties and races. It is an Arizona issue with an Arizona solution – which the fed could have avoided long ago had it’d been willing to pry it’s head out. The pdf of this law is only 17 pages long – which is amazing. If it had been a federal law it would have been 2000 pages with funding for butterfly houses in Wyoming and armadillo tunnels on the Moon. The fed has required immigrants to carry proof of legal residence since the 40’s. I can only assume this is so they can prove their legal status when stopped – which in typical government fashion they weren’t encouraging anyone to ask for.
Mcat105 appears to have not read the actual text of the law and is simply repeating the biased interpretation presented by opponents and the corresponding media.
People – do some research and don’t fall for the slanted views of those with an agenda.
Read the law and decide for yourself. Google is your friend.
Just because people do not agree with you does not mean they have not read the law. Your suggestion that they have not read it does NOT mean they have fallen “for the slanted views of those with an agenda.” Are you trying to suggest right wing propaganda mills such as Fox do not have their own agenda? Perhaps you have fallen for their view.
US Taxpayer
While Mcat105 may have read SB1070 he/she obviously has great difficulty understanding the law.
Joe
Joe: Just because Mcat105 does not agree with you does not mean he does not understand it. Don’t you understand that all laws are difficult to interpret? That is what courts are for.
US Taxpayer –
The Tax Code is difficult to interpret SB1070 is 17 pages of plain English.
Joe
Well you can’t describe the difference between cause and suspicion. Not so simple Joe.
US Taxpayer –
Reasonable Suspicion allows police officials to conduct a limited warrantless search on suspicion that doesn’t rise to the level of Probable Cause.
See Terry v. Ohio http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Terry+v.+Ohio
Joe
Joe: “Now known as a Terry stop, this type of police encounter is constitutionally permissible only when an officer can articulate a particularized, objective, and reasonable basis for believing that criminal activity may be afoot or that a given suspect may be armed and dangerous.”
Can you explain how having brown skin that would constitute “…criminal activity may be afoot or that a given suspect may be armed and dangerous?” Your use of this is racial profiling and is illegal as well as being racist. You have claimed to not being a racist.
US Taxpayer
When did you stop beating your wife?
Enforcement of SB1070 does not cause any more stops then are currently occurring it changes what charges can be applied by law enforcement upon a lawful stop.
On side note you are so mired in your contempt for conservatives and so in love with liberal/progressive ideology that you have no perspective.
Joe
Joe: You know, you have a point there. I will try to get more perspective on things. But people like Braveheart make it difficult to not have contempt for the far right wingnuts. But I promise to try and do better. Honest.
Joe C. I see you’re still full of it. I’ve read all of your posts and have come to the conclusion that you’re nothing more than a arrogant AH. You know as well as I, this woman’s illegal alien acquantances will ever be questioned if stopped by the authorities. AGAIN, the eyes of the law are humanized and with that comes racism, bias and other prejudices. SB1070 does not define reasonable suspicion and because of the racial undertones it was passed into law with, reasonable suspicion as it applies under SB1070, only applies to anyone with tan skin. Not say that we shouldn’t do anything about this problem, but to legalize racial profiling is downright wrong.
Mcat105 –
You may have read my posts, but you obviously are unable to comprehend their meaning since you continue to spew your specious diatribe.
Joe
Mcat105: do not bother with this one unless you enjoy hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.
According to the arguments put forth in this debate, ALL laws shuld be thrown out since our law enforcement officers are not able to keep their personal prejudices separate from their enforcement duties.
This is a BS argument. The law must be evaluated as written, not using ‘possible’ or ‘expected’ or ‘theoretical applications’, but instead as the actual law. This is not possible for those who refuse to read it, or refuse to believe the written words, and choose to interpret it to fit their own beliefs and biases. You can keep crying RACIST LAW! until you are blue in the face, but that still ain’t gonna make it true.
I’m not sure where this woman’s illegal friends live… if it’s around here, no they probably won’t ever be asked for proof of status – but no one is asking brown skinned people here either. However, if they’re running around a border state with a law like Arizona has enacted and get stopped for a legitimate reason (here I go again trusting officers) and they’ve got heavy accents or can’t speak English they certainly could be asked for proof of status – there’s no reason not to if the law allows for it. Officers do this stuff day after day… they know when someone is acting guilty. They’re pretty damned good at what they do. Again, I compare this law to the earlier version of the seat belt law where you had to be stopped for a real reason – then you got tapped for not being belted. Also, as I’ve said before it won’t matter since ICE isn’t going to process them because the administration doesn’t like the law.
I would presume that none of you have ever been to New Mexico. When you leave White Sands National Park and head out of Las Cruces, you ALL must go through the Border Patrol stops. You must show ID to the BP personnel to continue traveling on the highway (I believe it might be US-10 but it has been 6 years or so). Basically the majority of you on here, leftie/rightie, would have an aneurysm for the restrictions that anyone has driving through NM. The majority of all highways have a BP person manning a stop station where ID must be shown. I believe what most people are not realizing is that Arizona, rightly or wrongly, has forced the USG hand to take a definitive action. It would be a good thing to get a law that upholds the Constitution without tearing apart economies and families.
Why not make our own Maryland law and throw any business owner who employs an illegal alien in jail–likewise landlords? If they can’t work and can’t find a place to live, they can’t stay here. To me this is easy, but the Republicans–oh, really, let’s just say ALL POLITICIANS–will not step on the toes of their financial supporters.
I have a better idea – why not make it easier to immigrate to the US. In this way we would get hard working, tax paying citizens who will only make our country better. Oh yea, Republicans are holding this up.
US Taxpayer –
If you have open immigration and a generous welfare state what do you get?
Joe
Joe see above:
Some of the changes I believe in are:
• U.S. employers should maintain a legal workforce by verifying the employment eligibility of their workers.
• Allow the 11 million undocumented immigrants now living in fear of deportation to begin a process that will result in legal status and a normal life without fear of being torn from their family. Once the family backlogs are clear, assumed to be eight years, legalizing immigrants will be able to petition for permanent resident status. Eligibility will be determined by criteria similar to what has been included in previous reform bills—acquiring English language skills, paying taxes, passing criminal background and security checks, and paying taxes.
• Provide a meaningful number of visas for lower-skilled immigrants who will be able to come on a special temporary, three-year visa for non-seasonal, non-agricultural workers. This visa is renewable once. The number of visas available will adjust up and down depending on what is happening in the economy.
• Current temporary worker programs will have strengthened worker protections, and the agricultural worker program (H-2A) will be reformed in accordance with the agreement between farm worker advocates and farmers enshrined in AgJOBS.
• The proposal starts off with a discussion of “triggers” that must be met during the eight years that legalizing immigrants are in provisional status before they adjust to permanent status. The triggers include an increase in the Border Patrol, ICE worksite enforcement inspectors, technology and infrastructure on the border, increased immigration court resources, and other items.
• A new method of employment verification that involves a Social Security card with a biometric identifier. The card will contain a photograph and another biometric identifier, and will be able to identify the individual without an employer having to access a central database (though work authorization would be verified by on-line database).
• Increased numbers of Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) officers;
• Increased numbers of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents to combat smuggling; ICE worksite enforcement inspectors; and ICE document fraud detection officers;
• Increased personnel to inspect for drugs, contraband and illegal immigrants;
• Improved technology, infrastructure, and resources to assist CBP and ICE;
• Increased resources to prosecute smugglers and unauthorized border crossers; and
• Increased immigration court resources
• ICE needs a transfer policy with greater clarity of purpose and protections against abuse.
• To address deprivation of access to counsel, new facilities should be located where there is a significant immigration bar or legal services community.
Agree with you 100%
Maryland law already provides that anyone 16 years of age or older carry with them, and produce on demand from law enforcement, a valid govt. issued ID.
I do not have a problem carrying and showing mine.
If someone is here legally, let them show it and move on.
I would like to see a unified ID card for all US citizens, that shows both their driving status and citizenship status.
native says: “Maryland law already provides that anyone 16 years of age or older carry with them, and produce on demand from law enforcement, a valid govt. issued ID.”
You forgot to add “For Probable Cause”: the police can’t just walk up to someone who is brown or foreign looking, and demand to see their papers. Arizona would be the first.
US Taxpayer = Eric Holder = READ THE LAW = This proves that you are either stupid, haven’t read the law, or just one sick liar. I’m guessing the latter.
US Taxpayer
You need to stop misleading people about SB1070 regarding what that law says. It explicitly prohibits racial profiling and law enforcement must have reasonable suspicion in order to make a lawful stop.
Joe
joe_ a govt issued ID does not prove anything. In fact, it only proves your identity, not your legal status. There is no national ID system that proves your legal status for Americans, or any other residents, nor is there a system on demand that can prove a person’s legal stay. Since the system is not there to enforce legal status for all, the solution seems to be to harrass those who might not look, talk and walk like an American (this would be the reasonable suspiction), but it discriminates against those that don’t fit the stated profile.
No question, that we need to control our borders and enforce the laws, but a law that sets different standards for some and not for others is not equal under the law and it infringes on the people’s right of due process and innocence before guilt that defines the land of the free.
cisco –
Your post makes no sense.
SB1070 prohibits racial profiling. You might do yourself a favor and read the law.
Joe
Joe please read my response. Native was referring to MARYLAND not ARIZONA. I have already expounded on that travesty of reason and law in Arizona.
Braveheart = Sarah Palin, Ted Haggard, Dick Cheney, George Rekers, Brit Hume, Mark Foley, Tom DeLay, Larry Craig, Michele Bachmann, Michael Steele, Dick Armey, Rudy Giuliani, Mark Sanford, Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly, Rand Paul, Rupert Murdoch, Pat Robertson, Elisabeth Hasselbeck, George W. Bush and Tea Baggers. You are the worst example of a Republican. Your responses are no different than graffiti in a public restroom, they stink and are perverse. Try a thought out, reasoned response. You could even do a little research before you foul this site with your diarrhea of the brain: the shock would be welcomed.
US Taxpayer wrongly stated: “You forgot to add ‘For Probable Cause’: the police can’t just walk up to someone who is brown or foreign looking, and demand to see their papers. Arizona would be the first.”
Earth to US Taxpayer: Arizona would be the first what? Did you read the law? Hello? Did you read the Arizona law? It explicitly states that the police CAN’T do that.
Do you really think that by repeating the same incorrect statements over and over again, you will convince anyone that you are right?
Your homework assignment: Read the law, and then return and comment on that specific aspect – or continue to ignorantly debate using the same erroneous beliefs. Your choice.
Phil since you are sooo superior to me, quote the part that says that. If I am wrong about that I will admit it.
Mr. Dirt, you and Joe C. are ignoring the fact that the eyes of the law are humanized and with that comes discrimination. It’s a proven fact.
Mcat105 –
What’s a proven fact? I though Justice is blind?
Is Terry v. Ohio http://tiny.cc/s6ink discriminatory?
Joe
Again Joe do I have to educate you on that case.
“Now known as a Terry stop, this type of police encounter is constitutionally permissible only when an officer can articulate a particularized, objective, and reasonable basis for believing that criminal activity may be afoot or that a given suspect may be armed and dangerous.”
Can you explain how having brown skin that would constitute “…criminal activity may be afoot or that a given suspect may be armed and dangerous?” Your use of this is racial profiling and is illegal as well as being racist. You have claimed to not being a racist.
US Taxpayer –
Again Terry v, Ohio allows for the stop SB1070 prohibits racial profiling.
Joe
Joe: Show me where this law prohibits racial profiling. And explain how this law will be enforced without racial profiling. I will admit I am wrong if you can.
Section 13-1509. Trespassing by illegal aliens; assessment; exception; classification
Part C. A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not consider race, color or national origin in the enforcement of this section except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona constitution.
—ALSO—
Section 11-1051 Cooperation and assistance in enforcement of immigration laws; indemnification
Part B. For any lawful stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. Any person who is arrested shall have the person’s immigration status determined before the person is released. The person’s immigration status shall be verified with the federal government pursuant to 8 United States code section 1373(c). A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.
—-Insert US Taxpayer’s reponse here—-
Well, you know they’ll still profile, blah blah blah racists blah blah blah…
…Awaiting apology…
Joe C. – Good Lord! Justice is not blind. You obviously watch too much TV. As previously stated, the eyes of the law are humanized and with that brings bias, discrimination and prejudice. You just refuse to be wrong and it seems to me that you are undoubtly in favor of racial pofiling. There was already a federal law in place to enforce the illegal alien issue. Instead, the AZ Gov used SB1070 for politcal purposes and no matter how you look at it, with it came undertones of legalized racism and discrimination.
US Taxpayer –
Phil provided the correct excerpt and you should read SB1070 http://tiny.cc/ibwtv
Mcat105 –
I’m not in favor of illegal discrimination but you are certainly quick to malign those people that disagree with you.
Joe
Mcat105, if there already is a federal law in place to enforce the illegal alien issue and the federal gov’t refuses to enforce it, what woud you have the states do?
Also, you seem to have taken the position ‘I don’t care what you or the law say, of course it’s racism’. Is this your way of ending the debate? A common tactic when one can see defeat and has no defense…
Phil and Joe: I see what you’re talking about and it appears that this law does cover this. I apologize.
My doubt comes from the phrase “…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present in the United States”. I am not a lawyer but my reading of this, which is claimed as a Terry stop, does not cover how “an officer can articulate a particularized, objective, and reasonable basis for believing that criminal activity may be afoot or that a given suspect may be armed and dangerous” without profiling, i.e.,” not consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.” As we know, it is not permitted by the Constitution.
I feel that the wording in SB1070 that you allude to was inserted as a show so people like you can point to it for people like me. This will be determined by the courts. I am willing to let them.
Thanks, US Taxpayer. If only Attorney General Eric Holder, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, State Dept. spokesman PJ Crowley (who have all criticized it but admitted to not reading it) and any other administration folks and politicians who have denounced the law could read it before commenting on it.
PD: It is presumptuous to say those people have not read it because they do not agree with you. I am certain they have a better grasp of law than either of us. If they, who are lawyers, can comment on it without having read it, I say, shame on them. However, as I said, it will be the courts who decide this and none of the folks you mentioned are judges.
US – Each one of them, when questioned, directly admitted that they have not read it, but are instead going by what they have heard about it.
Yes, Holder and Obama freely admitted that they had NOT read the law. You probably didn’t hear about it since they won’t play it on CNN or MSNBC. That would embarrass the administration. Holder, the attorney general didn’t read it, 17 pages, but he felt comfortable criticizing it. Just like when Obama pulled this gem “I don’t know any details but the officers acted stupidly”. I guess he’s also clairvoyant. Again I’ll say it. This is Arizona’s law and it’s no one’s business but Arizona. None of this would have been necessary if every administration in the last 60 years hadn’t blatantly ignored their responsibility. For Obama to stand up and criticize Arizona for doing something about the problem that the Federal government is responsible for creating AND continuing to ignore is despicable. I also repeat that the same people who enjoy the safety provided by men and women that put their lives on the line every day now assume those same good people will racial profile. I also repeat that it won’t make any difference since every illegal they identify will be promptly ignored by ICE so all this angst is wasted.
fedup: Well, what can I say? It will be interesting to see how the very right Supreme Court will rule on this.
As I have two in law enforcement, you need not remind me that they put their lives on the line. However, at least on chief with over 50 years in the force does not like this law. Moreover, my son feels it would cause more harm than good and that they do not have the resources to do this. The real answer is to go after the employer and close gun law loopholes. It is their ability of criminals to purchase assault weapons that put my kid’s lives on the line. I have never heard one of you criticize the NRA for allowing this. They even feel that terrorists have the right to but these weapons for God’s sake!
…buy these weapons
Yes, how the S.C. rules will be interesting… I myself would like to see Arizona sue the federal government for not doing it’s job. I have a brother and niece in law enforcement in San Bernadino county and I agree that assault weapons are not needed by the average citizen. I’m happy to criticize the NRA for that if it helps. Unfortunately, one issue for them is the rabid anti-gun cabal that openly rants that a ban on assault weapons is only the beginning step for them to get what they really want. If I were in the NRA I might see assault weapons as a buffer – which is obviously a horrible point of view. Just a thought… I would so much prefer to see the people who would use such weapons put and kept behind bars instead of just being shuffled in and out of jail by pink panty wearing judges and dirtbag lawyers who only want to get a round of golf in before dinner. Personally I’d give a death sentence for possession of an assault weapon without a permit – but we’re too civilized to punish criminals, instead we have to live with them. Law enforcement is left to arrest these worthless feral animals time and time again. Since you have two in law enforcement, I don’t have to tell you about their loyalty and honor so you already know they wouldn’t be using the law to profile anyone. These good people do this job all day long and they know who they’re dealing with right away. I myself would never have considered such a job since I wouldn’t dream of getting physical with some of the skanky people I see in the world. As far as a chief or sheriff being for or against anything, I see them as political animals whose opinions are thereby marginalized. I’m not sure what additional resources would be needed beyond ICE actually doing the job they’re already being paid to do. They should simply come pick them up. I do agree with going after the employers, but I don’t see it happening… obviously there is money and voter influence pushing against it.
Fedup: You partially put your finger on it…”there is money and voter influence pushing against it.” I would say money that influences voters to vote against their own best interests is pushing against it. Businesses make too much profit exploiting illegal workers and buying off politicians for real reform to take place.
We are a country that votes via bumper stickers. Whereas most issues are complicated with nuances, voters only know the screaming sound bites propagated by Fox and other propaganda mills (and I will save you from saying it, and MSNBC). As Jefferson said, “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” The propagandists pick a popular sound bite and filter all information through it, e.g., “gives us back our country”, “save babies from death”, “illegals and crime”, etc.
If voters would really studied the issues in depth, with independent research, and vote for their and the country’s best interests, not by what Rush tells them, perhaps we could be free from packs and lobbyists. The irony in this? We have the most access to information than any society in the history of Mankind. We can find information virtually about any subject instantaneously. The information access we have would have been considered science fiction when I was a young man and spent hours researching a subject in the Reader’s Guide to Periodic Literature. (I wonder how many people even know what that was.) I can now do full text research of thousands of periodicals in SECONDS! Wow! But this society is unbelievable ignorant of facts and history. Today, people seem to only use the Internet for porn, games, texting and social sites.
The immigerants who come here and pick cabbage for 50 cents an hours aren’t breaking any laws. A lot of illegal immigrants do pay taxes by setting up corporations, etc to hide the fact that they’re here. They’re not as stupid as you think.
The crime and violence resulting from the Mexican drug lords is due primarily to the HUGE demand for ILLEGAL DRUGS in the United States. We need to clean house here in the US instead of blaming everything on the so called “illegal immigrant”. Yes, as illegal as they maybe, they’re willing to work hard for a day’s pay that is less than what any U.S. Citizen would accept.
The ILLEGAL immigrants who come here ARE breaking the law. (Uh, look up ‘illegal’.) Those are the ones we are concerned with.
This law attempts to treat the symptoms rather than the disease. The disease is illegal drugs, employers who break the laws by hiring and exploiting illegals and the access drug lords have to weapons in the US, (especially in Arizona). It is disingenuous of tea party people to bemoan the crime and other problems associated with drugs and illegal workers without also doing something about drugs, employers and gun mills in the US.
What I see is an oversimplification of complex problems fueled with racist’s attitudes (e.g., “give my country back”, “Save Our Nation”, “Freedom Not Fascism”, “Warning: If Brown can’t stop it, A Browning Can”, “Bring Back We the People”, a picture of the President as an African Witch doctor with a slogan “Obamacare” all of which were actual signs at a Tea Party rally.) Combine that with Republican desire to enrich billionaires at the expense of the Middle Class, corporate welfare, off shore tax hiding of big businesses’ profits, borrow and spend policies of the GOP, and the bailout of big banks done by BUSH one can understand my disdain of most arguments in favor of this law.
I have said over and over that I am willing to allow the courts to adjudicate this matter. Let’s give this a rest.
US Taxpayer –
People are not going to sit idly by while you mis-characterize, misinform and malign.
Joe
Joe: That is exactly why I always answer you because I feel you always “mis-characterize, misinform and malign.” What I provide is the anti-teabag argument. You can provide the Fox version and I will provide the NY Times, Washington Post account. The readers will decide. BTW, try using some other argument besides ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM. You’re becoming boring in your sameness.
US Taxpayer –
You feel confident in your anonymity to offend people by calling them “teabag” and teabagger”, but you are a coward since I doubt you’d have the cajones to post under your actual name or use this despicable and crude terminology in a public setting.
Joe
it’s time the average joe citizen listened carefully when they are in high school.
most of this argument is a result of our “capitalists” and “free enterprise” business community who can’t run a viable business without resorting to cheating the system.
because their business models are flawed and not workable, they resort to hiring illegals. in economic terms it’s called inefficient.
when businesses can’t make it on their own LEGALLY then they shouldn’t be subsized or be allowed to be kept afloat by using illegals.
illegals put pressure on public education, the hospitals and clinics, police, fire, and public safety, etc.
the business community offsets these costs to the average taxpayer.
the business benefits at the taxpayer’s expense. businesses can deduct many of their expenses whereas the average citizen has a more limited group of tax deductions.
these businesses that won’t survive otherwise won’t impact the U.S. or local economy, because they wouldn’t be able to hire any legal citizen otherwise.
therefore, let’s put the pressure where the pressure belongs…
not at the border in arizona, texas, new mexico, california per se…but on the businesses in their states and all the states across the country.
make serious penalties for hiring illegals. shut these businesses down when they do.
most large businesses especially our defense industry REQUIRE at least two or three forms of documentation, birth certificates, etc before hiring a worker.
if every company adopted some of these “best practices” this wouldn’t be an issue necessarily.
I agree that every one should listen carefully in high school. If the parent has done his or her job then the student will quickly understand how folks like Frank ended up with a head full of liberal bullshit. My Grandson comes home every day and tells me another story of how some whacked teacher is distorting history. Look at where they got their “educations” and it is really easy to see how our education system has gotten so fouled up.
Mr. Yensen,
I kwow your Grandson, the teacher and have sat in that class many many days. What history is being distorted so I can address it with the proper curriculum officials?
DY: Distorting history. You mean that stuff found in textbooks? Notwithstanding, if someone does not agree with your understanding of history, that does not make them whacked. Where do you think “they got their ‘educations’”?
Some have PhDs. Do you? The people who wrote the curriculum certainly have education credentials. Unless you can point to a specific example of where someone is “distorting history” with a researched and documented retort, please keep your conservative “bullshit” for your grandson who is not old enough to know what is true yet.
But I can promise you this, he will learn what is true someday, and he will remember your rants. I hope he does say to himself, “The old man was a great pop pop, but he sure was ignorant.”
Woops: I meant to say “I hope he does NOT say to himself…”
U.S. Taxpayer… In regards to your comment
PD: It is presumptuous to say those people have not read it because they do not agree with you. I am certain they have a better grasp of law than either of us. If they, who are lawyers, can comment on it without having read it, I say, shame on them. However, as I said, it will be the courts who decide this and none of the folks you mentioned are judges.
This link is to Eric Holder admitting he only glanced at the law. My favorite exchange with Holder is “Here you can have my copy it’s only ten pages long.” Janet and others have similar moments in other articles/videos.
More confessions:
Here’s Napolitano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwI1ICYCFE
and Crowley
joe & phil- What do you say about all the republicans that have denounced this law as a bad law? I read the law. There is a lot of gray in between what you might say is plain english. Officers have the right to stop anyone that they think might be illegal and those would be mostly of hispanic descent in Arizona. Do you think that there are many multi-national, ethnic and european illegals in Arizona? The law does not have to state anti-hispanic to be so. The same thing happenned when voter restrictions made blacks ineligible to vote,… not being able to read…most whites met that test, but not the blacks. It was an effective way of keeping black people from excersicing their right to vote. Clearly, this law is aimed at hispanics and promotes harrassment, racial profiling, ethnic separation, diminishes the rights of hispanic americans and is just plain a bad law. The republican party is on its way to being a one race party and in that only diminishing percentage of whites continues “want things the way the used to be”, but is not representative of the America in the year 2010
Cisco –
I am disappointed with the minority of folks that disagree or don’t understand SB1070.
SB1070 does not single out any specific racial, ethnic or religious. SB1070 is in no way equivalent to any deplorable voter suppression or anti-civil rights laws.
Republican Party lost all three elected branches of government precisely because it gave up on conservative values that are grounded in our Constitution, so I think that they are getting better but have a long way to go.
Joe
yes Joe they “lost all three elected branches of government precisely because it gave up on conservative values that are grounded in our Constitution.” They lost because they gave up on conservative valuse for the far, far right wing of the GOP. Like Reagan said: “The trouble with the Republican party is that its right hand doesn’t know what its far right hand is doing.”
Yes, cisco, “clearly” this law does all of things that you think it does, and not the things that are clearly spelled out in the text. Thank you for your insight. Have a nice day.
technically a u.s. citizen has the right to walk around with NO identification as long as they are not doing anything illegal.
i am hoping someday there is a court decision challenging all this B.S. ID stuff.
freedom means freedom from identification… it’s nobody else’s freaking business who i am, how old i am, where i live, etc, etc…
this is the u.s.a
not some commie fascist country…
i say no frigging ID!
Frank: This is known as Habeas Corpus (“Habeas corpus (pronounced /?he?bi??s ?k?rp?s/; Latin: “(We command) that you have the body”)[1] is a writ, or legal action, through which a person can seek relief from unlawful detention, or the relief of another person. The writ of habeas corpus protects persons from harming themselves, or from being harmed by the judicial system. Originally a feature of English law, the writ of habeas corpus has historically been an important legal instrument safeguarding individual freedom against arbitrary state action”) and is the foundation of our Bill of Rights.
I feel that this law will not be tolerated by the courts and am willing for them to rule on it. It does not matter what any of us say, the courts will decide.
Wow Daggar could not handle that. Let’s try it again.
Frank: This is known as Habeas Corpus (“Habeas corpus; Latin: “(We command) that you have the body” is a writ, or legal action, through which a person can seek relief from unlawful detention, or the relief of another person. The writ of habeas corpus protects persons from harming themselves, or from being harmed by the judicial system. Originally a feature of English law, the writ of habeas corpus has historically been an important legal instrument safeguarding individual freedom against arbitrary state action”) and is the foundation of our Bill of Rights.
I feel that this law will not be tolerated by the courts and am willing for them to rule on it. It does not matter what any of us say, the courts will decide.
US Taxpayer –
In order for someone’s rights to be violated under the application of SB1070 law enforcement would need to violate SB1070.
You have an emotional disdain for SB1070 and what you need is a factual argument.
Joe
Joe: What don’t you understand about the Judicial Branch of government? They review laws to rule if they are constitutional. You and I do not decide that. What you or I think about this law does not matter except as a talking point. I have given my thoughts on why I think it is wrong, and you have given yours. Give it a rest man!
US Taxpayer –
Pardon me but your mis-characterizations of SB1070 are over-the-top.
Joe
Joe: One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor. I feel you have “mis-characterizations of SB1070 (and) are over-the-top.”
US Taxpayer
Your disregard of the SB1070 facts are legion.
Joe
As is your fictionalization of this law.
US Taxpayer –
What fiction?
You attack with no basis or foundation. You have a liberal/progressive ideology that pervades all that you spout out. You employ no facts, just your emotion and vitriol.
Joe
Joe, SB1070 was signed into to law with blatant racial undertones. You know it, refuse to admit it because you agree with it. You said – “In order for someone’s rights to be violated under the application of SB1070 law enforcement would need to violate SB1070.” I previously informed you that the eyes of the law (i.e., law enforcement) are humanized and with that comes bias, discrimination and racism. This is the United States, not nazi Germany.
Comprehensive immigration reform is very badly needed, but not at the expense of American citizens who happen to be Hispanic. It’s quite obvious you don’t care because it won’t affect you.
Mcat105 –
Maybe you could point out the “racist undertones” you’ve uncovered in SB1070.
And after you’ve completed your racism test of SB1070 you can move on to dissect federal immigration law.
Joe
Joe that is ironic coming from a tea party follower. Everything I see from you is loaded down with emotion. Your right wing, Fox fueled propaganda steeped with anti-immigration anger will never admit to my facts because they are contrary to the party line. I have posted pages of facts and you say I employ no facts! They’re just not facts that would support your arguments.
I feel this law should indeed become law as it will guarantee all Hispanics becoming Democrats and they are the largest minority group in the country. You people would be advised to learn Spanish.
US Taxpayer = Disingenuous Left Wing Idealogue = Unionized Government Employee = Obama = Robert Gibbs = Valarie Jarrett
You really can’t think for yourself since you rely on the Government to do everything for you. I will admit that you are pretty good at cutting and pasting articles from left wing blogs.
The Tea Party is comprised of Americans that can think for themselves. No wonder you can’t begin to understand it.
You are truly pathetic……
US Taxpayer = Disingenuous Left Wing Idealogue = Unionized Government Employee = Obama = Robert Gibbs = Valarie Jarrett
You really can’t think for yourself since you rely on the Government to do everything for you. I will admit that you are pretty good at cutting and pasting articles from left wing blogs.
The Tea Party is comprised of Americans that can think for themselves. No wonder you can’t begin to understand it.
You are truly pathetic……
Braveheart: Ha, ha, ha, ha… if you can think for yourself why does every thought that comes from you air on Fox first? Give me an example of a thought from you. Give me an example of a tea bagger thought. Sloganeering is not thinking. Explain why you have a thing for government workers. Do you think it is difficult to get something done from a government office? Have you ever dealt with an insurance company? Health insurance companies think they have a medical degree and can tell doctors what medicines they can prescribe. Ever deal with that? God you are a moron.
one more thing…
mcdonagh is a goomba with that “english only” sign…
if you have ever been outside the country… there are many languages spoken…
and ONLY the UGLY americans speak but a single language… their own…
everywhere else there are signs in multiple languages… and the citizens of these foreign lands… HAVE to make special accomodations for the DUMB americans who can only speak their own language… in fact the foreignors take pride in being able to speak english well enough to help their american visitors…
but only in america do they promote this “english” only attitude… and maintain substandard public education systems because their citizens keep perpetuating stupidity… as if it were some kind of american commodity..
soon to be land of the free if you have id. all is really needed is to enforce employment laws that require proof of right to work.
If pushing an “English only” agenda so that the money stolen from me in the form of taxes isn’t wasted so illegals can read every sign in the state, I’m for it. I haven’t seen where they’re saying you must use English in your own home. I HAVE been outside the country to multiple countries and my wife speaks three languages fluently and Spanish brokenly. English is taught in schools in her home country. However, her friends that have moved to other countries have learned the LOCAL language in order to function. They did not insist all signs include their native language. (and it’s a hoot to hear her friend speak the form of German used in Switzerland – believe it or not she didn’t insist everyone in Switzerland learn Tagalog so they’d understand her). Fortunately for her, the English she learned in a foreign school helped her function until she had mastered the local language. So your view point is based on the fact that there is a significant number of folks needing bi-lingual directions – specifically in Spanish. Unless we should include every language on Earth. (my wife’s home country has over 70 dialects alone. Perhaps since Mexico wants to push all their workers into the U.S. instead of fixing their own crappy country they should teach the kiddies English… I agree that it’s a good thing to know more than one language and I tell my wife that when someone derides her accent she should ask them how many languages they speak. I can also attest from my own experience learning Visaya that it aint easy to learn a new language until you’re immersed in it in the country that uses it. I also agree with teaching another language while the kiddies are young. (It’s a shame it has to be Spanish when so many other languages are so much more pleasing to the ear). Aren’t they doing that in public schools?
So, as you say “and ONLY the UGLY americans speak but a single language…” Dude, I know I’m ugly… but I’m working on it…
You must be related to Joe C.
Spanish IS a beautiful language and by the way, it’s not the only language offered in school – Spanish, French, Chinese, Latin, etc.
phil- its a bad law. anti-voter laws of the 60’s did not have to spell out blacks, because the law required things that msny blacks could not meet. this law requires all hispanic, foreign looking, talking and walking to demostrate their right to citizenship or residency. A co-worker told me that “if they looked normal, like white americans they would not have to carry id” this law creates an undue burden on hispanics to prove their right to live here, and just by that mere fact, this law discriminates and targets brown people as less than american.
If the “brown people” are American citizens, they should support American laws. Your heritage has to comes second, if you are to swear allegiance to the United States. Most of us were born into the freedom that America affords, never giving much thought to our ancestors who struggled to get here. They knew that this country would give them a fresh start and a fair shake, and they wouldn’t be relegated to a life of servitude in many of the countries they came from.
Proximity is the problem here. If we shared a border with Liberia, or Pakistan, or North Korea, would it be acceptable for them to just walk over the border to find work and take services that are paid for by tax dollars? You say they are doing jobs that Americans wont do, and that is a weak excuse. Americans will do any job, if their paid a living wage. I’m in favor of fining the living shit out of companies who hire illegal aliens. If the demand was not there, the supply would diminish.
They are illegal aliens also, not illegal immigrants (immigrants plan on staying and naturalizing), or undocumented workers (breaking the FEDERAL law makes them illegal). My great, great grandfather came here as an indentured servant and had to be sponsered by a land owner who agreed to work him and school him in being naturalized. He was a Gilder who spoke seven languages and had a college degree, but gave that up and worked as a farm laborer for seven years to be a part of America.
Also, I was born in a foreign country (Germany) to an active duty soldier. I’ve been asked many times for my Report of Birth Abroad Certificate, once I’ve stated my birthplace, and never balked or gave it a second thought, in producing my documentation.
The liberals (progressives) would like to make this about race, because they make everything about race, thats just their nature. It’s about the Law though, and if were going to have laws, they need to be enforced. They won’t try to change them though, because they know that the majority would revolt. So, they choose to ignore the federal laws, putting the burden on the states and then bad mouthing the states when they have to step in and do their job. Sad, Sad , Sad.
john- You are a sad excuse for a proud american. brown people are americans too, not just your white washed history of america, my grandparents suffered bull crap. hispanics are cleaning your pools, lawn, trash, cook your take out and do many menial jobs also. And they are also dying in Iraq and Afganistan, some of them are not even American yet!!!. What does being an american have to do with supporting unconstitutional laws? supporting racial profiling? and giving up your rights as an american so that a misguided state can place undue burdens upon a part of the population, but not others?
No doubt, someone born in Germany would not have a clue about human suffering, since for the most part your ancestors caused it.
Cisco –
Cut the the victim crap. You either haven’t read SB1070 or can’t understand it. It enforces already existing federal law at the state level.
Why haven’t you been objecting current federal law?
Joe
there is no federal law that demands proof of id for any person in their normal activities.
joe-why don’t you just admit that this is just a bad law, poorly written, not comprehensive and lacking proper foundation in the Constitution.
cisco –
SB1070 is less restrictive than federal law and it requires reasonable suspicion for a stop. It is Constitutionally grounded and there are many occasions where people in the regular course of their activities are compelled to prove identity.
Joe
It has become obvious that cisco either:
a) has not read the law
b) has read the law but doesn’t understand it, or
c) has read the law, understands it, but chooses to continue to present a slanted, erroneous, irresponsible version of it.
Folks, don’t waste your time arguing with someone who refuses to face the facts.
If I hadn’t read his other ‘opinions’ on The Dagger, I would have bet that he is actually a supporter of the law and is trying to satirize the oppposition through ridiculous outrage and distortions – a local version of The Colbert Report.
phil-don’t outthink yourself here. My conservative ideals are centered around the CONSTITUTION, less govt, freedom and the ideals that make America a nation of freedom for all. My opposition to this law is based on those ideals. Fixing illegal inmigration has nothing to do with this law, just enforce the current employment laws that require proof of legal stay for all job applicants, as oppossed to those that migh “look, talk, and walk” like a different kind of duck..that my friend is unamerican, not really what I signed up to defend when I enlisted 30 some years ago.
Cisco, You’re absolutely right. Non US Citizens, a lot of whom happen to be Hispanic, are defending/dying for this great country just for a chance to become an American citizen. They’re fighting to protect the rights of people like Joe C. – hmmmmm…..imagine that.
No victims here.
Yes, frank, this is America and at least for now you have the right to misinterpret or twist laws to fit your misguided views. Thank God you are not in a position to enforce them.
frank: As decided by Phil the Supreme Court Justice. Don’t gainsay Phil as he is the all knowing Oz. Thank God we have Phil to look out for us and “take back the country” from those brown skinned hordes. And never blame Arizonans for having some of the weakest gun laws in the US that allow drug lords to buy any type of weapon or ask businesses to be accountable for hiring those “illegal” workers. That is, after all business: anything to make a profit. Remember, this is the state (one of the red ones) that feels government is too “big” unless, of course, they want something, and then the government isn’t doing its job. Go figure!
On May 19th I said “…it won’t make any difference since every illegal they identify will be promptly ignored by ICE so all this angst is wasted.”
Now I see the article: “Top Department of Homeland Security official reportedly says agency will not necessarily process illegal immigrants referred to them by Arizona authorities.”
May I begin to crow “I told you so”?
Imagine that, ICE not doing the job they’re paid to do… with our tax dollars… whodathunkit?
fedup didn’t I say that if Arizona feels it has a better way: rooting out and prosecuting illegal immigrants. If they break Arizona law, then Arizona should bear the full cost of jailing them, feeding them, paying for law suits against overzealous law officers. They will also need to hire a lot more officers with training on how to carry out this law while not infringing on constitutional habeas corpus. Arizonians should understand what this law will cost them since they are all but broke (low taxes you know). Perhaps then they will figure out that to control the situation they would be better served by going after businesses that knowingly hire illegal workers and gun mills that supple drug lords with weapons.
supply
I stand by my statement. Arizona created a law to allow illegals (this would be people who are breaking the law) to be identified if they have been stopped for a legitimate reason (I’m going to trust law enforcement officers – you know, the ones that risk their live to protect us). Sort of like the law we had that if you were stopped and you didn’t have a seat belt on you’d be fined – of course now they don’t need any other reason (which I’m sure will be your next objection). If an officer pulls over a van with a tail light out and there’s a dozen people crammed in the back, they know what’s going on. I don’t see the problem in asking for the documentation any resident alien knows he should have on him (since the federal government already told him to keep it on him at all times). My post – again not what you really responded to – was that as I predicted ICE is not going to do it’s job… just like when my brother told me they had him set ten illegals loose because they didn’t want them. They had already freely told him they were illegal and had jobs waiting in LA. This law should NOT cost Arizona anything because ICE is supposed to deport them. Why should Arizona put them in prison? That’s stupid – it’d probably be nicer than going back to Mexico. Go after the folks hiring them? Absolutely – with mandatory jail time. Shut down the gun shops? Won’t make any difference, but go ahead. If they break Arizona law and they’re here legally, Arizona already has to foot the bill… but if they’re illegal ICE should do it’s job and deport them.
Yesterday the Mexican President stood before a joint session of Congress and “dissed” The United States of America. He was joined by the Socialist Democrats, with cheers and a standing ovation. I don’t think any of these people like this country.
What we should do, today, is pass into law the immagration law of Mexico. It would be acceptable to Mexicans and Democrats………NOT.
Congress should be sent home for gross misconduct and the Mexican president needs to learn some manners. Mr. Obama needs to review his oath of office.
If “dissed” is grounds for “Congress should be sent home for gross misconduct” then we would have an empty congress. BTW, define “dissed”.
“an empty congress”… oh, Taxpayer… don’t tease me! I’d like to see term limits… one in office and one in prison. Wouldn’t it be nice if the Mexican president would do something to fix his own crappy country instead of coming here to criticize ours? What an a-hole.
fedup:
TOO MANY TAXES?
TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT?
Move to Somalia
US Taxpayer –
Great example of non-sloganeering.
Joe
Thanks. I knew you’d appreciate it. I can’t get much past you.
Great response tax guy. What, in your mind is actually “enough taxes?” Those of us in the upper middle class who are in fact producing daily, are being taxed about 60% now. What is enough government? Between the municipal, county state and federal not to mention homeowner associations and business associations, how many or what percent of the producing population is consumed into government.
Now to ask it again of you; simply, who pays the bills when more than the current 40% of non-taxed citizens reaches 60%? How deep is this well? By the way I seldom bother with FOX News and wouldn’t know how to repeat their stuff if I tried, so pack the taunt somewhere else.
Wow. Where do you live DY? In the US the tax rates are (married filing jointly):
0 to $16,750 = 10%
16,751 to 68,000 = 15%
68,001 to 137,300 = 25%
137,001 to 209,250 = 28%
209,251 to 373,650 = 33%
373,651 and above = 35%
So if you are paying 60% you need to find an accountant.
As far as your contention that 40% do not pay taxes I will, again, answer you with facts to disprove this myth:
“The stimulus programs of the last two years — the first one signed by President George W. Bush, the second and larger one by President Obama — have increased the number of households that receive enough of a tax credit to wipe out their federal income tax liability.
But the modifiers here — federal and income — are important. Income taxes aren’t the only kind of federal taxes that people pay. There are also payroll taxes and capital gains taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too.
Even if the discussion is restricted to federal taxes (for which the statistics are better), a vast majority of households end up paying federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data suggests that, at most, about 10 percent of all households pay no net federal taxes. The number 10 is obviously a lot smaller than 47.
The reason is that poor families generally pay more in payroll taxes than they receive through benefits like the Earned Income Tax Credit. It’s not just poor families for whom the payroll tax is a big deal, either. About three-quarters of all American households pay more in payroll taxes, which go toward Medicare and Social Security, than in income taxes.
(http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html )
Statisticians will jump on the clear difference between “persons” and “households,” and that is correct. Since the number of people within a “household” can vary, it is illogical to assume that 47 percent of the American population will pay no income tax – and even more illogical to assume that those who pay no income tax ought to be paying income tax. Infants, inmates and all sorts of other poor people have no income to speak of, and ought not to be paying federal income taxes. Moreover, the vast majority of people who escape federal income taxes still pay other taxes, including federal payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare, and excise taxes on gasoline, aviation, alcohol and cigarettes. Many also pay state or local taxes on sales, income and property.
There are also tax credits for college expenses, buying a new home and upgrading an existing home with energy-efficient doors, windows, furnaces and other appliances. Many of the credits are refundable, meaning if the credits exceed the amount of income taxes owed, the taxpayer gets a payment from the government for the difference.”
DY: Maybe you feel that you pay too many taxes because of a tax loophole that allows billionaires to only pay 15%. As Robert Reich said in his column: “Who could be opposed to closing a tax loophole that allows hedge-fund and private equity managers to treat their earnings as capital gains — and pay a rate of only 15 percent rather than the 35 percent applied to ordinary income?” Closing this particular loophole would net some $20 billion.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/closing-tax-loopholes-for_b_586378.html
US Taxpayer –
When I take passages from your post and Google them I find articles produced by others. You need to stop plagiarizing other people’s work and passing it off as your own writing.
Joe
That is because you do not click on the links I always put on my posts. However, I have noticed the Daggar takes some of the links off. I can’t help that. Try answer my posts with resaerch of your own since you can use Google.
US Taxpayer –
You are a plagiarist plain and simple. You have not been able to demonstrate that you are capable of original thought.
Furthermore you have no way of knowing if I or anyone else clicks on your links.
You need to clean up your act.
Joe
Taxpayer, I’m not sure how your response even qualifies as a response. I didn’t say anything about taxes or government. I only point out that the Mexican president who lives in a huge glass house came to ours and started throwing stones. Perhaps if Mexico didn’t suck their citizens wouldn’t be lining up to enter the US illegally. Try entering Mexico and see if it’s president is as welcoming as he wants the US to be. You also know from my previous posts that I don’t bemoan taxes… just taxes that are wasted – which would probably be about 85% of them. Our government seems to excel at waste. A private sector job held by one person seems to require several in the government. It also seems that incompetence and ineptitude are rampant and rewarded. The government has become something it was never meant to be and something it should not be allowed to continue be. I don’t think taking money from Maryland and spending it on Hawaiian’s simply because they have a senior senator is right or fair. I also don’t know of anyone in DC I would consider honorable or trustworthy. So if you’re going to respond, please keep it on point and leave off the bumper stickers.
Qualifiers: Try entering Mexico ILLEGALLY and see if it’s president is as welcoming as he wants the US to be.
I also don’t know of anyone IN CONGRESS OR THE WHITE HOUSE I would consider honorable or trustworthy. There might be a judge or a hooker or two I could trust.
Joe: You will need to point to something specific before I can answer you. I make every effort to put quotation marks whatever I quote. Can you show me an instance where I didn’t? If not, then this is usual strategy of attacking me instead of my argument.
Fedup: My response about taxes was to DY and not you. He was the one who claimed to be paying 60% in taxes. These strings are getting too long and mixed up, sorry.
US Taxpayer –
You copied text that also appears in this article – http://www.thecourierexpress.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20422900&BRD=2758&PAG=461&dept_id=572980&rfi=6
Joe
Joe all I can say to you is that there are quotation marks around that text. Quotation marks mean that it is a quote. I am careful to put quotation marks where appropriate. I think you have no answers and, therefore, can only attack.
US Taxpayer –
Bull crap!
Your posts do not have quotations marking the passages. The quotation marks are on “words” from the plagiarized passages you lifted.
Joe
US
You obviously haven’t a clue about anything you post about since you don’t use your own thoughts or words.
You are clueless and should be rebuked.
Joe
US
In my small effort to rebuke you for lack of integrity I have demoted your name from US Taxpayer to US.
Joe
Whatever Joe. Continue your attack without dealing with my arguments. You are an example of a petty, small minded man whose idea of an argument is personal attacks. What can I expect from a tea bagger who apes his strategies from the likes of Rush, Sarah and Glenn?
US –
It’s curious how you complain of personal attacks when it is you that attack personally and use crude sexual terms like “teabagger” to impugn those who disagree with you.
You are not only a plagiarist, but also a hypocrite.
Joe
To all except tax guy. I pointed out that those of us who are producing are paying 60% of our created wealth in taxes. The tax guy came back with the federal income tax tables and told me I am nuts. The guy is either being obtuse or is a simple dolt with his entire front half in the public trough and doesn’t get it.
There are taxes for and on damn everything we touch. income taxes are a small portion (30%) of gross income here in Maryland. That is the portion that your employer is forced to withhold from your pay for one or more government activities. Then comes sales, real estate, gas, luxury, etc. Then come “fees” which are taxes for specific use. when it is all done you and I are left with approximately 40% of our pay check to use as we please. That actually translates to working to support some government program or person until sometime in August every year. And this dolt has the audacity to suggest that we ought to be paying more. Sorry tax guy I’m not getting enough bang for the busk on what I already pay.
Please note that I asked the Komrad to answer a couple of simple questions (twice) and he has chosen to obfuscate.
Comrad US Taxpayer, dissed as in disrespectful. Rude to the country in which he is a guest. If he thinks things are bad in the US, why are so many of his people in a rush to get out of Mexico
Cisco-I respect your views and thank you for your service, however as an American of hispanic descent, I don’t believe you really know what damage having illegals in my country does to the belief that all hispanics are illegal…my friend your attitude permeates the mixed belief that hispanics care about Mexico and their needs as much as the needs of the United States.
I believe we have the right to self-determination and in that we get to decided as nation who is allowed to stay and who is not. I think have a national ID would be the right prescription to cure this illegal disease and everyone should carry it and show it upon demand. Tougher sanctions against employers that hire illegals..including jail time and heavy fines would also help. Allowing people that entered the country illegally to stay and show them a path to citizenship is plainly wrong.
The state of Arizona is under siege and is being overrun by drugs trafficking, human trafficking and illegal trade. we have a federal govt that during the Bush and Obama administrations have turned their backs to protecting the sovergnty of our country and are more concerned with political points in winning the hispanic vote along with the black vote and progressives interested in bigger govt and social issues as oppossed to economic freedom for AMERICANS.
Rocco, it goes back longer, Bush 41, Clinton, then Bush 43 and now Obama.
leticia olalia morales of 15501 pasadena ave #8 tustin ca 92780 submitted fake employment records to obtain a US work visa. she also used fake documents and paid $5000.00 for a US tourist visa. she is now applying for citizenship.
[img]http://sadireland.com/images/nina2cd.jpg[/img]
http://sadireland.com/images/nina2cd.jpg
In case Paddy forgot….
You really want to put an end to illegal immigration and the “taking of jobs from Americans?”
Fine employers $5000 per illegal per day, retroactive to the initial date of hire. That ought to do it.
Because these people would not be “taking American jobs” if the employers didn’t GIVE them American jobs.
On Saturday, May 29, 2010, I visited The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial in Washington DC as a wreath was laid. Their web page explains that “This Memorial Is Dedicated to All Law Enforcement Officers in the United States of America. Inscribed on These Walls Are the Names of Those Men and Women Who Died in the Line of Duty.” It was dedicated in 1991 and contains the names of more than 14,000 officers from 1794 who died in the line of duty.
Let us take a moment to honor these government employees who are always on call to “serve and protect.” This year, National Police Week 2010 was May 9-15, 2010.
http://www.correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/motchan/nleomf/nleomfvisit2.html
Thanks for the input tax guy. If you had filed this on just about any other week end I would have been truly interested. This week end however it’s all about my brothers and sisters who made the ultimate sacrifice for all of our liberties. I can’t go to DC on this particular weekend since half my flight school class’ names are engraved into the big black gash in the ground. I do appreciate, immensely, what the police and fire fighters do every day, but his weekend it’s just not about them.
Really bad choice my man.
Dave-I agree that this weekend is one specifically for our fallen heroes, however it is also a good day to remember any one that died in the line of duty while serving their community.
DY: Then complain to the Nam Vets who organized this. This is so typical of you to make your snide remarks about something you nothing about.
Taxguy, are you truly that dense? First off what do you mean by it? I can’t figure out reading your usual drive what it is that was organized by Nam Vets. I also don’t care if IT was organized by medal of honor winners. Yesterday was Memorial Day when real Americans take the time to remember our fallen service men and women. Maybe that’s why the National Police Week 2010 was May 9-15, 2010.
I understand that you have law enforcement family members. So what did you do, other than drop some sperm that turned out to be a good cop?
DR: To each their own way of remembering fallen heros. Real Americans can also remember all who serve.
DR; Please note that this tax guy idiot never answers questions. Also of note is that he must be one shriveled up miserable old pe=iece of detrius left floating on a sea of hatred. He is far too stupid to understand any nuance or inuendo. Next time step out there and smack him up side the head to get his attention.
Daddy Rabbit: If you think that dropping “some sperm” is all it takes to be a father, you are betraying a heritage of a trailer park in Mississippi. It sounds as if you have had some unpleasant run-ins with the police.
US
Memorial Day is reserved for fallen soldiers who died while in service of their country.
It is unfortunate that you have decided to redefine Memorial Day’s meaning and reverence to include another worthy but distinctly different group of people and as result created a controversy.
You are quite a divisive and selfish sort of person. You should be ashamed for demonizing good folks who correctly believe that Memorial Day is for fallen soldiers and to suggest for them to do so they are somehow insulting our brave law enforcement personnel.
You should apologize and give Memorial Day observance back to those it was intended to honor.
Joe
I don’t know man… he did say it was the 29th and he posted on the 30th and Memorial Day was the 31st… I know we call it Memorial Day weekend, but Memorial Day was Monday. I don’t see any problem honoring law enforcement two days prior to Memorial Day – hell, I’d honor them everyday. Feel free to hold his feet to the fire, but I’m giving him a pass.
fedup: You have to understand that Joe is biggest asshole who ever posted on this site. He has never contributed a thing but exists to attack all who he perceives is different than he or who do not follow the prescribed Tea Party line. My best advice is to just ignore him. He obviously needs a life.
We all pity you old dried up prune.
US
You are a brave man under the cover of your anonymity to call people names.
Maybe at the next public meeting you attend you can use vulgarities to insult people with whom you disagree to their face in full view of the audience?
Have a very nice day,
Joe
Joe: Now you know how I feel about your constant attacks. Have a nice day!
us
Actually I have no way knowing how you feel, but I do understand that you lack integrity and you promote a bankrupt liberal/progressive ideology.
Joe
Joe;
You do know how tax guy feels. With him it’s all about touchy, feely, wishy, changy feelings. Unfortunately, in the real world things get done CORRECTLY by thinking. TG And the rest of the leftists will never get it and will spend their lives trying to feel good. Don’t waste your time responding to this dolt any further.
Seems both sides can only resort to name calling….I wonder why nothing gets done in Washington!
JC, DY, PD: All three of you are cut from the same bolt of cloth. You can dish it out, but cannot take it. You have yours, but do not want anyone else to have any (prosperity and security). You are perfect examples of everything wrong about your conservative Tea Party point of view: selfish, small and ignorant. You attack the speaker instead of the argument (ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM). One can present you with reams of statistics, facts and historical references, but you never budge from your intractable positions.
Your whole existence is based on the proposition that you made it through hard work and everyone else should also be able to do so. You cannot conceive that anyone else may need a leg up or the government may actually exist to help and protect the citizens of this great country. You remind me of the governor of Louisiana: he attacks big government, believes big business can “do anything” but now has his hand out with a tin cup and wants the government to spend more on him. I am proud to be a progressive and liberal, ACLU card carrying Democrat.
I don’t see how all this bickering helps. There are fundamental differences in opinions here and there are debate points that can be put forth. I do not align myself with the far right, but I do believe in self reliance. I don’t think the federal government should have – currently – about 2 million employees (according to BLS). This is absurd and it doesn’t even include the Post Office. I agree with Reagan when he said that government is not the solution to the problem, government IS the problem. Some programs are good and necessary. I don’t suggest there should be no FDA or FBI or any of the other departments that work well. I would however say that most of the departments that work well could be pared down when compared to equivalent private sector operations – and all of them need a firm ass kicking and a serious crack down on theft and misuse of government (our) property. I don’t believe in the federal government having the rights it has self granted to affect the internal workings of the states. I don’t believe in having money collected in Maryland via federal taxes spent in Hawaii or any where else on pet projects for dirtbag senators. Pork must stop. Bailouts must stop. The government ignoring it’s citizen’s outrage must stop. This march toward European socialism must stop. I do believe everyone should prosper, but I don’t believe it’s the responsibility of the government to see to it that little Johnie is successful. The government should provide the level playing field. A leg up should be provided by private charities and when welfare is absolutely necessary it should only be provided after clean drug tests and whenever possible, enrollment in job training courses. I do not believe in charity that goes abroad while Americans suffer. I don’t believe in sports figures or Hollywood political pundit wanna-be’s making millions while children go to bed hungry. Simple decency has died and no one in the public eye even wants to point it out. I believe the ACLU has been hijacked by progressive liberals that want minority rule through prosecutorial tyranny. Anything they oppose, they’ll sue you over and wear you down. I consider them the Anti Christian Lawyers Union. I’m not sure what the Louisiana governor wants, but if it’s anything to do with New Orleans, I don’t want to hear it… anybody that would maintain a major city in a hole surrounded by water and kept dry by what appeared to me in the footage I saw to be a tall Jersey barrier and call it a “dike” is an idiot. They knew what kind of a situation they had and left it that way for decades. By the way, why single out the LA governor when every dirtbag politician in DC has a tin cup permanently attached to their hand? (the other hand is in your wallet).
You do now that calling the American Civil Liberties Union the “Anti-Christian Lawyers Union” is akin to calling the TEA Party movement “TEA Baggers”?
Cdev: “You do (k)now that calling the American Civil Liberties Union the “Anti-Christian Lawyers Union” is akin to calling the TEA Party movement “TEA Baggers”?
It is not the same as they picked the tea bag as their symbol. They bought a million tea bags and handed them out to represent their point of view. Their web page sells tea bag symbols. I can’t understand why any of them would object to their own symbol.
US Taxpayer & Robert Gibbs – Two pricks in a pod. Guys you’d love to play in a game of pick-up football to teach them a little lesson.
And I would care about calling the tea party members “tea baggers” because???? What do I care what anyone calls anyone else? Call me whatever you like, but the mindless spending in DC will continue… both parties are guilty. No one here or any where else will change this unless they put down pointless partisanship and work to cleanse DC of the incumbent dirtbag politician power bases as well as the leaches that call themselves lobbyists. DC has become a cesspit. There isn’t a politician in DC I’d trust to watch my yard sale while I went for a drink… and I’m not just saying that… any vote for an incumbent in DC is a vote by a fool because all it’ll buy you is more of the same.
When you don’t have facts or a good argument, resort to profanity. You’re a big man, US Taxpayer.
So much for “we need this Arizona law for protection” crap we hear from the Tea Party. This law is for white people who feel threatened by new demographics in the US. Get use to it people, your days as the majority are over and you’d be smart to assimilate into the new majority. When will you support a rational immigration reform law?
“It’s one of the safest parts of America, and it’s getting safer. It’s the U.S.-Mexico border, and even as politicians say more federal troops are needed to fight rising violence, government data obtained by The Associated Press show it actually isn’t so dangerous after all.
The top four big cities in America with the lowest rates of violent crime are all in border states: San Diego, Phoenix, El Paso and Austin, according to a new FBI report. And an in-house Customs and Border Protection report shows that Border Patrol agents face far less danger than street cops in most U.S. cities.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/03/us-mexico-border-safety-a_n_598825.html
I saw that report too… so apparently all the previous news stories from every outlet including the AP is not true. Phoenix is apparently no longer the kidnap capital of the US. OK. I’m not surprised. “Get use to it people, your days as the majority are over and you’d be smart to assimilate into the new majority. ”… I hope I never come off sounding as smug and arrogant as you because quite frankly if the “majority” you speak of all sounds like you I’ll go it alone. “assimilate” – I guess that means “change your world views to match mine because you’re stupid and wrong”… your advice is troubling. “the new demographics” – so do we include illegals in demographics now? I’m all for rational immigration reform… as soon as the border is closed and if someone can convince me it’ll be fair and not the political tool I expect it to become. I have yet to hear how the left justifies the blatant unfairness of allowing Mexicans to illegally cross the border simply by virtue of proximity. I have relatives that can’t get a tourist visa no matter how I beg and plead with all the princes and potentates of the state department. HOW is this FAIR? Please tell me. I’m dying to know… sneak across the border and the left will welcome you with welcome arms… oh, you’re having problems feeding your kids? Here we’ll give you “government money”… it comes from the sky you know… Had the kids here? Oh, they’re citizens… outstanding! Come get your benefits! Oh, Fedup, can’t take your niece to Disney World because of the same federal government that’s taking your money to build turtle tunnels? Tough shit pal… move over though, there’s an illegal behind you that wants to buy a ticket to the Magic Kingdom. Until you or someone else can tell me how this situation is fair and why people who are here illegally deserve any rights except a ticket back across the border I’ll remain staunchly opposed and Fedup.
fed up-maybe you’ll feel better if you go to La Tolteca and have some burritos and fajitas. You are an angry fellow. For the record, illegal entry into the country is not a felony, thus not really a crime that would require incarceration. Illegal does not equal criminal. Criminals cause crime, illegals cause cheap labor.
Cisco: Unfortunately it will be a crime in Arizona. And what do you want to bet that Arizona will beg for federal dollars to pay for this incarceration.
taxpayer-this law will not stand the test of time once it works its way through the federal courts. What part of illegal law don’t you understand? Illegal means illegal!!!. how’s that for irony?
Cisco –
What aspect of the law is illegal? Could you point out the sections of SB1070 that will not stabd a constitutional test?
Joe
joe-the reasonable suspiction clause contained in SB1070 does not equal probable cause standard which is critical element in being able to and in conducting searches and seizures which are prohibited under the constitution, unless probable cause can be stablished.
Another issue would be how can you apply reasonable suspiction that can rise to probable cause, ie does the person look, act, speak, behave or do something that gives suspiction of illegal entry that would make reasonable suspiction equal probable cause.
For probable cause to exist the law officer would have to be tipped, informed, or obtain information from others which would elevate the treshold from reasonable suspiction to that of probable cause.
Arizona law is less clear on how to implement the law.
This is further complicated because we americans are not easily distinguished as such, ie japanese are of one race, so are chinese, and scandinavians. Thus reasonable suspiction can only rise to probable cause if persnal bias from either the law officer or informants to “out” someone as being here illegally. Another point to consider, In Arizona and much of the south west, a fairly large percentage of the population is hispanic and can be thought of being illegal without probable cause, just reasonable suspiction. Clearly, that would infringe on the rights of any american under the constitution.
This law would only work if under all cases, all incidents and all events, the police would have the right to ask any one for proof of legal stay and apply it to all the people, all the time. This is impractical since it would be time consuming and americans don’t have a national ID that could be checked within a national database to determine its authenticity and verify its validity as all states have different rules and procedures for issuance of IDs and no state has a document, aside from a birth certicate to prove national origin.
cisco,
Cisco
Reasonable suspicion is a standard under Terry v. Ohio 1968.
Joe
joe-terry vs. ohio has limitations and exclusions, a “terry” stop can’t be used unless a crime has been committed, during the process of a crime, or to prevent a crime.
While the Arizona law makes illegal stay a crime, that’s hard to prove just by the everyday activities of a person about their business. This law will be a hard law to implement while protecting the constitutional rights of the people.
Do you think its right to have the police just ask for your ID (that proves your legal stay, when there isn’t a document that proves that fact)at any time for any reason to anyone? And even if you would not have a problem with it, you can probably concede that your reasonable suspiction can only really be applied to those that don’t look “american”. This this practice will probably become discriminatory.
Cisco
The Terry stop is and has been the standard for reasonable suspicion since 1968. Whether the stop under SB1070 will have to measure up to to Terry v. Ohio.
Joe
Taxspewer,
You mean Phoenix AZ ISN’T the US Kidnapping Capital?
(sorry, my proof only comes from the LA Times, not a fully objective source like the Huffpo)
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/12/nation/na-drug-kidnappings12
You mean when small towns across the nation (like the one Mayberry was based on) suddenly have their first rash of multiple murders, illegals have nothing to do with it?
(http://www.wbtv.com/global/story.asp?s=11423075)
You mean the guys who cut those 3 little kids heads off in Baltimore (and whose mother was afraid to testify) all came here with passports and tourist visas?
White Guilt is just as damaging as White Racism.
We need to seal the borders and account for everyone who wants to enter this country as a guest worker. Period.
Stop confusing US Taxpayer with facts and logic.
Not cool, man. Not cool.
some people are are confused
Jacob –
Confusion maybe, self-delusion yes.
Joe
Daliscar: LA Times article Feb 2009: old news and not relevant today. The murder in Baltimore, not from the cities in the article. Moreover, we do not have a discriminatory law based on crime that does not exist but where the fear is very real albeit not justified. Of course that political hack, Pat McDonough, is tiring to drum up fear and hate for his own advantage.
However, I am in agreement with your proposition that the boarders must be closed with all people accounted for, but we need a rational method of allowing good people to work here temporarily without becoming a burden on us. Do not try to justify your position with nebulous stories of mysterious crime in “Mayberry” USA. The facts Phil, do not bear that out. National crime statistics have shown a marked decrease in crimes. Harford County has had an 11.2% decrease in crime for example.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/prelimsem2009/index.html
Gee, maybe if we factored in the obvious reality that EVERY illegal here is breaking the law EVERY moment they are in the country ILLEGALLY the crime rates in America must surpass any third world warlord led country on Earth. The sad simple fact is that the left is willing to ignore the very real laws relating to immigration just because they don’t agree with them… If I don’t agree with the law that says I can’t break into your house and take your possessions, is it OK if I simply ignore it? I’m truly sorry that reality is such a bummer for so many people. Oh, and I’m still waiting to hear how all of this is fair…
This topic is just too fun to let lie… so, all those ILLEGALS are just law abiding residents… law abiding illegals… is that an oxymoron? (no jokes now…) also, Taxpayer, you said this law had been explained to you but now it’s “discriminatory” again. What happened?
Fedup: Just where did I say in the above post that we should ignore laws? I said we “need a rational method of allowing good people to work here temporarily without becoming a burden on us”. How do you interpret that to mean we should ignore laws? Of course I meant legally.
And as far as the law having been explained to me, it still is discriminatory. But as I have said before, this will be a boon for Democrats as it will make all Hispanics dems and that will be a good thing.
OK, so it all gets back to legalizing all the illegals that are here now. No punishment for the violation they are obviously guilty of and for those who can’t get here LEGALLY… too bad, so sad. I’m still waiting to hear how this is fair. Of course, if ignoring their violation of laws helps to swell the ranks of the democratic party with your “law abiding illegals” it’s all worth it right? More partisan B.S.
fedup: Yes dealing with the 10 to 12 million illegal workers here now to work for businesses that ignore our laws is a problem. I don’t have a good idea to deal that except to fine these businesses really, really draconian. I am all for immigration which, I think, is the backbone of our country but, as we have agreed, legal immigration.
I have posted my ideas to improve the system and I have outlined how it is the Tea Party Republicans who are holding this up while bemoaning illegal immigration. If they are so upset with it, why are they holding it up? I think it is for political purposes so they can frighten people into voting GOP. That is the partisanship you should be addressing.
I keep hearing that the solution is to punish the employers… I’m all for it, but what happens when you dry up the job market – which is the end game – and you then have 10 to 12 million starving illegals?
fedup: They go home and 10 to 12 million Americans will have jobs. Of course the employers will not be able to exploit Americans as much as they do illegals and they will have to pay them a living wage. Perhaps some businesses will go under due to raising employment costs. But do we really want these businesses?
10 to 12 million will go home? If 1% (check my math) turn to crime to feed themselves that means 100,000 criminals forced to crime to feed themselves… should be interesting.
fedup: Well at least 100,000 is more manageable assuming you are correct with your basic assumption of turning to crime. Of course, if we gave them a legitimate path to citizenship that problem would go away.
US, it’s always nice to understand where you’re coming from… so to avoid a 1 percent turnover to crime for – remember now starving, jobless with no more means of work – illegals, we’ll give them all something they don’t deserve or have any right to. Still waiting to see how how the left feels any of this is fair to my relatives….
Dear US Taxpayer,
Years ago my dad put a sign on our television that read “Just because it is on TV doesn’t make it true.” He put that up after returning from fighting in Vietnam. I have carried that truth with me throughout life as I have watched news reports and read newspapers–often recognizing that what was being reported was not the story at all.
Just as changing one’s party affiliation from republican to democrat doesn’t change what is in a politician’s heart, manipulating statistics and issuing updated reports does not change the high rate of violent crime in the border states.
Everyone prefers to hear things that tickle their ears, but drumbeat of truth is undeniable.
Does anyone see the irony in our insistence upon erecting physical borders in order to control illegal immigration while simultanesouly sending troops to fight for walls to come down around the globe to secure other people’s freedoms?
Wake up fellow Americans. We are walking into a trap. Our government is slowly, steadily eroding our freedoms, destroying our economy and inflicting great harm upon our citizens in an effort to distract us from their intended purpose. That purpose will result our going to sleep one night as citizens of a free republic only to wake up the next as peasants in a feudal society.
Rachel: You wrote. “We are walking into a trap. Our government is slowly, steadily eroding our freedoms, destroying our economy and inflicting great harm upon our citizens in an effort to distract us from their intended purpose. That purpose will result our going to sleep one night as citizens of a free republic only to wake up the next as peasants in a feudal society.”
This is news to me and I am a news junky. Where did you hear of this? How do you know it is true?
I believe there is hyperbole there, but there are some seeds of truth as well – but I wouldn’t expect any “our freedom is gone” headlines. The majority of America did not want the health care bill in the form it was in to pass and yet with all the objections lodged with their representatives we got it any way. I sincerely hope this costs some folks in DC their seats at the trough for not being the representatives they are supposed to be and deciding they know best. Anyone that voted for a bill where the architects wrote themselves out of its influence is a complete, utter, total, moron – this is beside the astounding fact that no one actually read what they voted for. The majority doesn’t like the runaway, stratospheric debt… and the response from our elected officials is to raise the debt ceiling and include more frivolous spending in the next bill to attempt to keep their seat at the trough. They no longer have any real world connection with the average person. The majority does not want cap and trade which is one of the biggest boondoggles to come down the pike (with Al Hypocrite Gore and his ilk poised to be billionaires) yet we will probably get it in one form or another – and it will cripple the economy such as it is. The fairness doctrine is always smoldering and ready for someone to fan. Net neutrality was attempted and put down by a judges ruling. The country is in a position where its direction is being decided, for the most part, by the two coasts… particularly California which can’t even get itself out of bankruptcy. Middle America which doesn’t hold the same values as those calling the shots is beginning to seethe with resentment over having to pay any part of the bill for things that rankle.
I’m not sure about the fighting over walls thing since no one is fighting to eradicate sovereign political borders.
fedup: First of all, most Americans DID want health care reform. No it was not what I wanted as it was basically the Republican plan from the 90’s but it is better than nothing and I hope it will improve.
The national debt is mostly due to 8 years of BUSH and REPUBLICANS borrowing and spending. I did not hear any complains then.
As far as protecting our environment, we only have one Earth and once that is gone, we are gone. It is quickly dying due to man’s stupid policies. Someone has to protect us.
Read about how Israel is erecting walls in Palestine in order to steal land for settlements. They are indeed, trying to “eradicate sovereign political borders”.
Mr. USeless Taxpayer –
You are a progressive socialsissy Democrat, race baiting, anti-Israel, anti-capitalist, open-border, self-loathing ideologue who hasn’t a wit of sense or logic.
Why do you hate America so much?
Crystal
Do you read nothing of what I say? The majority did NOT want the one they passed. Our elected representatives spit in our eye and passed it anyway. If any senator had a pair of balls at all they’d say 2000 pages of legal mumbojumbo is not acceptable. Go back and write it so it can be understood or don’t come back at all. I WAS complaining during the Bush years. Obama has with a single signature added a trillion to the debt. I’ve said time and again I am non partisan because I know what politicians are – my eyes are open and I highly recommend it. I am all for protecting the environment but not for the boondoggle you will see with cap and trade. It is foremost a scheme to make money… and politician Al Hypocrite Gore knows as much about the environment as my left testicle… which is not to insult the right one which knows much more… Palestinian and Jewish microbes will be fighting one another when the Earth is a cold dead cinder – neither wants peace so why waste your time.
Fedup: Perhaps it is true that the current bill is down in popularity now but “For Republicans, the idea of requiring every American to have health insurance is one of the most abhorrent provisions of the Democrats’ health overhaul bills.
‘Congress has never crossed the line between regulating what people choose to do and ordering them to do it,’ said Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT). ‘The difference between regulating and requiring is liberty.’
But Hatch’s opposition is ironic, or some would say, politically motivated. The last time Congress debated a health overhaul, when Bill Clinton was president, Hatch and several other senators who now oppose the so-called individual mandate actually supported a bill that would have required it.
In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. ‘It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time.’ ”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123670612
The hypocrisy of the GOP is mind blowing and the credulousness of the public is without bounds. It is so unpopular because all they hear from Fox is negativity. It was the same with Social Security but now we could not live without it. Just for once I’d like to see the right wing try to help the American people instead of only work toward winning elections using any means.
I agree that cap and trade is a bad idea and I do not favor it. I do though favor the idea of the government encouraging new technologies that would free us from foreign oil much as Kennedy did with space. We must reduce pollution now before it is too late or are you one of those deniers of global warming?
US, I make solid points and you respond with empty rhetoric. I’ll promise to assume not every democrat is a far left loony zealot if you agree that not every republican is wearing a hat to hide their horns. I agree we needed health care reform, but instead of keeping the things that work and fixing the problems (and allowing choice), Obama’s group – whoever it might have been that actually crafted the monstrosity since it sure as hell wasn’t congress – wanted to start from scratch. Representatives that voted for it without reading it should be punished. I’d prefer to see them jailed but alas, that isn’t against the law. You will never see tort reform because they’re all lawyers and they’ll never do themselves harm. Don’t you even wonder why the architects wrote themselves out of it? Doesn’t that bother you? Doesn’t it make you question what’s really going on? If the party says it’s good you’re all for it? Do you know what’s in the bill? I don’t, but if they don’t want it for themselves it can’t be good and anyone that blindly accepts it under those circumstances is much too gullible.
At least we agree that cap and trade is a bad idea… guess what though… you’re gonna get it anyway if Obama gets his way. Call your representatives now and see how they ignore you. After that Gore and his cronies will watch the money roll in. I agree with new technologies for energy as well. As far as global warming, I am as skeptical of that as I am anything where large amounts of money are poised to change hands. What I see is over zealous scientists cooking the numbers to reflect what they want them to say. I see monitoring stations that experience urban creep so of course the numbers go up. I see summer after summer where it doesn’t reach 100. I see the Sun in a very quiet sunspot season. I see the news every night where the high for today was not set last year or the year before but in ’35 or ’12 or something… do I deny? No, I just don’t buy the extent because there are unscrupulous people involved and I question the sources of the changes. As I recall, in the larger scheme of things, the Vikings were farming Greenland not so long ago.
As far as hypocrisy, neither party has a corner on that market.
Fedup: Tort reform! All that means is that hospitals and doctors want to protect themselves from malfeasants. Do you realize that more people die in hospitals due to mistakes and negligence that die in automobile accidents? How would you have accountability unless through litigation? Do you think a hospital would care for a severely injured person for 30 or 40 years? If doctors would police themselves and remove the few bad apples and hospitals would provide a safe environment, we would not need “tort reform”. That is a red herring.
There is a difference between “climate change” and weather. Climate change effects weather but weather is not climate change. It is silly to say that “I see summer after summer where it doesn’t reach 100” and then use that as an argument against climate change.
Note to all but the untaxed guy;
This guy is talking through his posterior at all times. He just repeats the untruth of CNN, NBC, CBS, et al. Ignore him and he might just go away. But then you never really get rid of cockroaches either.
Note to all but the bung hole who calls himself a tax guy but turns out to be just another parasite:
The only person here who eats preparation H three meals a day is the tax guy parasite. Please not that he has been asked several very simple questions and resorts to calling me an asshole. Shame on yo you pious pimple on the ass of progress. Lie the rabbit asked what have you ever done except drop some semen?
I find it hilarious that you seriously deride CNN, CBS, and NBC when they are perhaps the only ‘main-stream’ news sources out there that clearly have no idealogical bent to them. The ironic aspect of all of this is that you FOX people (BRAINWASHED) fail to recognize that even MSNBC news is quite unbiased (their commentators clearly are left-leaning, but the straight up news coverage is not). This is what makes FOX so dangerous… their news coverage is impressively biased. It is your rhetoric we need to ignore, not US Taxpayers (but sadly the brainwashed amonst us will listen to the sensationalist FOX version of things… ahh to be conservative in America today… it is so easy, just hate and spew lies).
Dave can dish it out but cannot take it. Listen Dave you call me names and what do you expect? Try saying something intelligent rather than attacking me. What you do is what an asshole does. I treat people the same way they treat me. If you are respectful and try to contribute to the discussion with a well thought out, researched posting, I will answer you in kind. You call me names and you get treated the same. Can you understand that? You get from me what you give.
Bunghole….talk about arguement of the weak!
joe-one can see that this law stands on tenious grounds as far as it being enforced equitably and fairly. We shall see if the constitution will allow Terry vs. Ohio to become the standard by which this law can be enforced and applied. My thought is that police will not be able to just come in an ask anyone, at any time for proof of legal while one is about his/her own daily activities. I can see it being implemented during the commission of a crime, while investiaging a crime or if criminal behavior is observed.
I think if would be a sad day in America, if police can just stop me, you or anyone else under normal and everyday activities and ask for ID. As far as legal residents being required to carry ID, that’s true, but I would am not required to show it to a police officer in my local jurisdiction. Because this is a federal law, not a local concern and if fact the presumtion would have to be that you know that I am a legal resident and you would then ask me for ID.
US Taxpayer:
Yes tort reform. Apparently you have no problem with someone suing for a million and the scumbag lawyer gets at least half of it. Or suing some asbestos giant for the suffering patients and reaping billions while thousands of victims share what’s left. That’s what needs to be fixed and I don’t think allowing billionaire lawyers is a red herring. You won’t see this fixed because lawyers run the show. Which of course is the major problem with America. Scumbag lawyers run the show. “If doctors would police themselves”… I don’t see congress policing themselves either but I don’t hear you complaining.
I understand climate change so you don’t need to call me “silly”. So far I’ve refrained from any personal insults. I stand by my skepticism because as I’ve said, far too much money is poised to change hands and far too much questionable science has taken place. Once again, my skepticism ties in with my non partisan position… if a politician is saying it, it’s probably a lie. It doesn’t matter which party they’re from. You cherry pick points that I make and ignore the rest.
It is amazing how often the moniker ‘questionable science’ is used when the speaker does not wish to accept conclusions that the evidence points towards.
By their own admission “scientists” were lying and conspiring to push data they liked and suppress that which they didn’t like – then, almost beyond belief, the raw data was destroyed. This is “questionable science” by most definitions. Billions if not trillions are poised to change hands under cap and trade. Those that are solidly convinced have been convinced by those same scientists and amazingly politicians with as much climatology savvy as the average teaspoon. I have not decided one way or the other mostly because of the lack of credulity of the major players that are pushing cap and trade. Remove the monetary incentives and I can suspend my skepticism.
Fedup: To say all scientists lied about data when there is no proof of that is to use ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM propagated by Fox (the more often you hear a lie or an exaggeration without proof the more people tend to believe it). Climate Deniers harp on one study with weak data and claim that ALL scientists lie about their studies. No one can believe that!
Even if one scientist did falsify data that does not prove ALL scientists did. There are literally thousands of studies that conclusively show climate change (I do not call it warming). The evidence is just too overwhelming that we are in a period of rapid climate change. Yes, global warming and ice ages have happened before, but we are talking about unprecedented rapid climate change caused by man. http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/gw-real.html
You need to divorce cap and trade from the larger picture of global havoc. The key word here is global. We only have one Earth and we must stop destroying it for big business profits.
US, you’re right… good thing it’s NOT what I said… also, please don’t use the Latin thing on me… I’m not impressed. I’m not a “climate denier” I’m a skeptic that is watching a lot of people working VERY hard to get VERY rich (as they sit on their private jets wringing their hands in mock concern) while other countries will ignore the very rules that will cripple our economy… to the point where even at our current levels we’ll be a drop in the bucket in comparison and our favorite hypocrite Gore – with the carbon footprint of a small city – will be a multi-billionaire. I’m amazed that so many on the left embrace the whole carbon offset trade scheme that will allow the rich (the evil ones) to buy the right to keep their current lifestyles while they urge the little people to throw on an extra sweater and blanket. Now, which item to cherry pick and respond to… I’m still waiting on the fairness of illegals.
Fedup: You didn’t say “By their own admission “scientists” were lying and conspiring to push data they liked and suppress that which they didn’t like – then, almost beyond belief, the raw data was destroyed. This is “questionable science” by most definitions.” That meant to me that you thought ALL scientists were lying about climate change and, it seems, that you think they do this in order to promote cap and trade. Which scientist is pushing Cap and Trade? I don’t think they are promoting that. I believe Cap and Trade is nothing more than an excuse to pollute. It is wrong and I am glad we agree on this.
What do you mean by “fairness of illegals”? I don’t know why your relatives can’t get a visa. Just because there is difficulty with this, does not mean the entire department is bad or corrupt. Moreover, one cannot tell who is illegal and who is not; just because the speak Spanish does not make them illegal. For example all Porto Ricans are American citizens. “Puerto Rico has been under U.S. sovereignty for over a century and Puerto Ricans have been U.S. citizens since 1917[“ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Puerto_Rico OK no Latin, you’re right and I’m sorry.
US, fine, in the future I’ll be specific with “some” so that “all” is not assumed. Using the quotes around scientists is intended to throw their scientist credentials into question – since anyone pushing bad data is of dubious integrity. One is left wondering why they would be willing to throw their research into doubt and then be stupid enough to document it through an e-mail trail… were it not for the huge sums of money to be made not only on the cap and trade game but on the whole green jobs mandate.
Fairness of illegals is from an earlier posting. By accident of geography Mexico is adjacent to the US and we have a flood of Mexican citizens running around the country. Other countries are filled with citizens who would love to come to the US – and actually assimilate. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the idea that you and others on the left have proposed is to allow currently illegal residents to obtain permission to work legally… this is not fair. My situation is not unique. The same federal government that allows Mexicans to cross the border and run around illegally by the millions refuses to allow my sister in law and niece to come here because… are you ready? “You might not come back”… The embassies are packed every day with people seeking visas to come to the US, every one of them has paid something over $100 (I think it’s up to $125 now) directly to an account in the bank to get an appointment and most (probably over 90%) will be denied. Of course their money is forfeit and I’m very curious where it goes. This in my eyes makes the whole federal government state department one huge scam. Why not give the illegals 12 months to go home and apply to come back legally – and then they can be denied over and over again.
Fedup: I thought that if you married an American citizen, you could become an American citizen. Is your sister-in-law married to a brother (an American)? Is she trying to get a visitation visa as a tourist? As a student? There are many kinds of visas. Tourist Visas cannot be that hard to get as we are chuck full of foreign tourists. When I went to the Grand Canyon, most of the tourists were foreign. If she wants to immigrate, couldn’t you or another family member sponsor her? Would that expedite things?
You are correct in thinking it is not fair to be given a Green Card solely due to being able to stay here illegally. It is another thing to get a temporary work permit (obtained in the country of origin). I believe that as part of the reform package, illegal workers do need to go back and reapply. I do not sanction illegal immigrants. I do support an easier path to legal immigration.
Fedup: And one more thing, let me say this about green jobs mandates. I was able to get a 16.5 seer heat pump for $4174 because of tax credits and incentives from Carrier and BG&E. That was a good thing. Thank you federal government! Thank you democrats! I bet plenty of Republicans took advantage to this as well as the “Clunkers” deal for new cars. Give some credit to us.
US, My wife who is Filipino by birth is now an American citizen. Yes, you can sponsor a parent for a green card which will take several years to go through (unless of course you run into any problems with birth certificates, etc. which converts years to nevers)– then they can sponsor children. However, sponsoring a sibling is an ordeal which is timed in decades. Believe me; I’ve had plenty of time and experience in immigration matters. I would have liked to take my niece to Disney on a tourist visa… unfortunately they’ve been turned down three time$ and we’ve had to opt for meeting them in Hong Kong (a place they can visit without any visa) to visit Disney there at a future date… certainly a fine way to stimulate the US economy. I have filed affidavits of support and included letters from Senators and the wonks at the US embassy simply ignore anything you present. I suspect a bribe is the only way to get through and I refuse to play along. I’ve had far better dealings with the Philippine embassy than with my own. I honestly believe the experience I have had, seen and heard about first hand makes me more qualified than most on this site with regards to immigration. I dare say I’m probably the only one here who has actually been inside an INS office to view the zoo first hand.
Aren’t the tax credits and incentives to Carrier and BGE going to be paid for some how? Maybe by all of us?
Fedup – US Taxpayer is simply an idiot. He fails to grasp that the tax credits used by Americans to purchase new cars and home purchases, etc.. will simply increase the national debt and raise taxes.
Poor Braveheart can’t get a tax credit living in an apartment. But for the rest of the Middleclass, this is a good thing. It provides jobs (something Braveheart is not worried about) for millions of Americans allowing them to pay taxes. It saves our environment because I now have a more efficient unit and will use less energy.
US Taxpayer – Like I said you are too stupid to understand much. You keep cutting and pasting your socialist diatribe. Your day will come.
US Taxpayer – Like I said you are too stupid to understand much. You keep cutting and pasting your socialist diatribe. Your day will come.
Braveheart: Like I said, you can only call names because you are still a child without a thought and without the ability to construct a cogent argument. And for your information, my day is here pal. You’re the party out of power. Oh yes, ha, ha, ha…
US Taxpayer = OBAMA = Amateur Hour and soon to be out of power. Simple enough for you to understand US Taxpayer.
climate change is an observation. It occured many times throughout history, iceage, little iceage. In Britian during the 1500’s grape growing took off and of course the plague was spread more easy due to periodic warming. Global Warming is simply a hypothesis as to why which seems to fit the data availible at the moment unlike Gravity it is not a law or fact. What is a fact is there seems to be a change in temperature. Why is the question!
Cdev: The why is not in dispute. ” What causes global warming?
Carbon dioxide and other air pollution that is collecting in the atmosphere like a thickening blanket, trapping the sun’s heat and causing the planet to warm up. Coal-burning power plants are the largest U.S. source of carbon dioxide pollution — they produce 2.5 billion tons every year. Automobiles, the second largest source, create nearly 1.5 billion tons of CO2 annually.” http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/f101.asp
The question is how to mitigate it.
No, that is still just the opinion of some individuals. You are simply picking whichever hypothesis fits your own beliefs and stating that it is established as a scientific fact.
Just because they say it is so does not make it so.
Taxpayer you do not know the difference between a theory and law!
Are you two saying that we are not in a climate change? Gravity is a theory, do you want to jump off of a bridge to test it?
No I am saying that climate change is occuring. Why is currently explained by multiple theories on the matter. One such model/theory is the greenhouse effect.
In contrast Gravity is a law. A smaller object will have an attraction to a larger object thus meaning on earth all objects will fall with the same acceleration towards the earth at 9.8m/s sqaured. This is an indisbutable fact known as a law. Some people believe that global warming is a law. Climate change or changing temperatures over a long time are an observable phenomena. What is the theory!
Cdev: Gravity is considered a theory as far as I can tell. See the quote below:
“Everything becomes clear if you assign their proper meanings to words like “theory”, “law” etc. in a scientific context. In particular “theory” is not an insult (as in the silly saying “it’s just a theory”). A theory is simply the most elaborate form of consistent scientific knowledge not yet disproved by experiment. In experimental sciences, a theory can never be “proved”, it can only be “disproved” by experiment. This is precisely was makes a theory scientific. A statement that cannot be disproved by experiment may still be highly respectable but it’s simply not part of any experimental science (it could be mathematics, philosophy or religion, but it’s not physics). Now that we have the basic vocabulary straight, we may discuss gravity itself:
Gravity is a physical phenomenon which is obvious all around us.
As such, it’s begging for a scientific theory to describe it accurately and consistently. The rules within a theory are called “laws” and the inverse square law of the Newtonian theory of gravitation does describe gravity extremely well. Loosely stated:
“Two things always attract in direct proportion of their masses and in inverse proportion of the square of the distance between them.”
However, the Newtonian theory does not provide the ultimate law for gravity. We do know that General Relativity (GR) provides more accurate experimental predictions in extreme conditions (e.g., a residual discrepancy in the motion of the perihelion of Mercury is not explained by Newtonian theory but is accounted for by GR).
Does this mean Newtonian theory is “wrong”? Of course not. Until we have a “theory of everything” (if such a thing exist) ANY physical theory has its range of applicability where its predications are accurate at a stated level of precision (stating the precision is VERY important in Science; an experimental prediction is MEANINGLESS if it does not come with a margin for error). The Newtonian theory is darn good at predicting the motion of planets within the Solar System to many decimal places… That’s all we ask of it and that’s what makes it so valuable.
Even General Relativity is certainly NOT the ultimate theory of gravitation. We know that much because GR is a “classical” theory, as opposed to a “quantum” theory. So, GR is not mathematically compatible with quantum phenomena which become obvious at very small scales…
Science is just a succession of better and better approximations. This is what makes it nice and exciting. If you were to insist at all times on “the whole truth and nothing but the truth” in a scientific context, you’d never be able to make any meaningful statement (unless accompanied by the relevant “margin for error”). As a consistent body of knowledge, each theory allows you to make such statements freely, knowing simply that the validity of your discourse is only restricted by the general conditions of applicability of a particular theory. Without such a framework, scientific discourse would be crippled into utter uselessness.”
(links removed due to Daggar)
And the Arizona law specifically forbids stopping anyone “under normal and everyday activities and ask(ing) for ID”.
I would encourage you to read Leadership by Rudy Giullaini where he explained that the way they stopped crime in New York City was to throw the book at anyone seen doing anything even slightly illegal with the expectation that it will increase officer encounters and net those with any outstanding warrants.
If you were homeless and attempting to wash windshields you were arrested for Jaywalking.
The approach is very effective. I applaud it.
What I disagree with is the notion of requiring officers to fully ascertain residency status and then to fill our jails with all those “questionable” residents lest the officer and their department be sued. If they get too eager in netting those illegals they will be inunndated with civil rights violation lawsuits. The city of Minneapolis just paid 165K to the walking dead for civil right violations when police detained them for looking suspicious on the grounds that they might be terrorists. This is the type of lawsuit that we can expect to see happen over and over again where the Arizona proposal is enacted.
Either we’re going to have cops not be as activist in stopping the minor crimes that help prevent major crimes or we’re going to instead have cops get sued for not detaining those they stop or we’re going to have civil rights violations for detaining legal citizens. This is a no-win situation for those who care about stopping crime and protecting our citizens. Why can’t you see that?
Calling me unhinged or pointing to that simplistic clause in the law as being any form of protection does not change the fact that this law stinks and you nor the 2-time college dropout McDonough (if that isn’t you) clearly lack the intellectual capacity, breadth, and forsight to prevent this IED from blowing up in the Maryland taxpayer faces if allowed to be brought to our state.
No to this bill. No to McDonough. No to Imparallia.
cisco: “Now known as a Terry stop, this type of police encounter is constitutionally permissible only when an officer can articulate a particularized, objective, and reasonable basis for believing that criminal activity may be afoot or that a given suspect may be armed and dangerous.”
Can you explain how having brown skin that would constitute “…criminal activity may be afoot or that a given suspect may be armed and dangerous?”
http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/terry-stop/
I doubt very much that a Terry Stop will fly in this law.
taxpayer-I think you need to read the posts before commenting on a particular piece. You can disagree with me on the application of the law, but don’t just make stupid comments since I wasn’t speaking about anyone’s race, just the application of Terry Vs. Ohio and probable cause that is protected under the Constitution. You can reduce any argument to childish thoughts as you have doe with Braveheart, but I won’t stand down to your level of nonsensical counterpoints.
CISCO: I think you need to think before you make comments, period. The application of this law will hinge on race as a probable cause. Can you explain how that is a “nonsensical counterpoints” or just your way trying to impress?
US, When you state “The application of this law will hinge on race as a probable cause.” you tell me that you don’t trust the men and women in law enforcement to actually follow the letter of the law… is it because you actually believe that or you simply don’t like the law itself?
Fedup: As I stated before, this law can be abused and I feel that we need to guard against that. It is Sheriff Joe Arpaio and people like him that is worrisome. See earlier link below:
Even if the law specifically allows police to only allow checks for citizenship after a stop for a crime, the practice can quickly degenerate to race baiting. What the police can do, and what has been done in Phoenix by Sheriff Joe Arpaio, is “Stopping and arresting individuals in the middle of a block, for littering, for honking their horn too loud, for having broken tail lights, for riding a bike at night without a light, one case for driving in a car with the tread of a tire too low — pretenses to stop individuals who then have to prove that they’re here legally.”(link removed)
Other links to see:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/us/28immig.html?scp=7&sq=%20Sheriff%20Joe%20Arpaio&st=cse
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/opinion/23deavere-smith.html?ref=opinion
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/us/29arizona.html?scp=7&sq=Sheriff+Joe+Arpaio&st=nyt
Fedup: As I stated before, this law can be abused and I feel that we need to guard against that. It is Sheriff Joe Arpaio and people like him that is worrisome. See earlier link below:
Even if the law specifically allows police to only allow checks for citizenship after a stop for a crime, the practice can quickly degenerate to race baiting. What the police can do, and what has been done in Phoenix by Sheriff Joe Arpaio, is “Stopping and arresting individuals in the middle of a block, for littering, for honking their horn too loud, for having broken tail lights, for riding a bike at night without a light, one case for driving in a car with the tread of a tire too low — pretenses to stop individuals who then have to prove that they’re here legally.”(link removed)
So, it’s a little bit of both. That’s cool. There was a similar outcry about freedoms and bogus stops when the seat belt laws initially went into affect… but that died down too.