The following comments were presented by Bill Wehland to the Harford County Council on Tuesday, May 07, 2013. A copy was provided to The Dagger for publication:
I was truly disappointed and frustrated with this council relative to how Bill No. 13-16 was so poorly handled at the last council meeting on April 16th.
I sent an e-mail to each council member, the county executive and legal council the very next day trying to understand the process that took place. I only received a response from Mr. Woods and a short rude condescending response from Mr. Guthrie which I thought was completely inappropriate for an elected official.
Bill No. 13-16 was introduced and supported by Council Member McMahan, President Boniface, and Council Members Woods and Guthrie on March 19th. Although it could have been better explained as to its intended purpose the bill would have legally broadened the scope of regulations and approvals for General Merchandise Stores 75,000 square feet and over and Shoppers Merchandise Stores 75,000 square feet and over in business district B3. I thought this bill was going to be a stepping stone for further legislation to cap the size of stores in business districts and I supported it. Other progressive counties have done this and it is legal.
Although many citizens saw this bill as preventing or stopping Walmart from building, I did not believe it was possible. However, it would have required developers, including Walmart, to follow the same rules and procedures that exist for Integrated Community Shopping Centers, Planned Residential Developments, and Mobile Home Parks. The importance of it was to place final approval in the hands of the Board of Appeals and the County Council
Perhaps seeing the possibility of legal action by Walmart or other developers who had already submitted their plans, an amendment was proposed by council members Ms Mary Ann Lisanti and supported by council member Mr. Richard Slutzky to exempt all developments that had already been proposed or were in progress.
This amendment went to a quick vote along with some clean up amendments to the bill and was approved by five of the seven members; the negative votes were by President Boniface and Council Member McMahan.
This amendment automatically exempted Walmart and others who had submitted plans so there was no longer any fear of legal action by Walmart or other developers as to “changing the rules” in the middle of the game.
Here is the strange and bizarre part of the proceedings and the irresponsible action or inaction by members of this council.
Mr. McMahan makes a motion to approve Bill 13-16 as amended and not one of the other council members seconds the motion so it is declared dead by President Boniface because of no second. I simply could not believe it or understand why and I am not alone with those feelings after numerous discussions with other people. At least with a second it could have been discussed and rationale for it or against it explained to the public.
Miss Lisanti and Mr. Slutzky you both got what you wanted in an amendment so why didn’t one of you second the motion? Was there something else you were against and if so why not bring it up for discussion by seconding the motion? I was not sure where Mr. Schrodes stood on the bill or the amendments but suspected he was against it for unknown reasons.
Mr. Guthrie who also sponsored the bill was not really sure where he stood on the bill. First he was quoted as saying in the paper on March 22nd the legislation, i.e. Bill 13-16 was “absolutely” in response to Walmart’s controversial plans to build on Plumtree and Route 924 and it was to try and get a hold of any big box stores in the future wanting to build something in excess 75,000 square feet. He did not think passage of the legislation would necessarily force Walmart to build a smaller store but said it was a possibility but it depended on where Walmart was in the process. So Mr. Guthrie supports the bill but does not second the motion even with Walmart exempted from it. His rationale to me and others was “this legislation is feel good legislation” and he did not want to give the citizens a false sense of security which would have lasted a month.” Mr. Guthrie I do not believe there would have been any false sense of security by the citizens about Walmart. Five council members including you saw to that by the amendment exempting Walmart and other projects in process from the bill. I have no idea why you sponsored this legislation from the beginning other than maybe to make you look good in front of your constituents because you were also against the Walmart move. What messages are you are now sending to your citizens. Does it now give them a good feeling or sense of security? Far from it!
Mr. Woods I did appreciate your response to my E-mail. You initially were a supporter of this bill but indicated there were other projects in your district that could be delayed by this bill and could lose bank funding. I do not know what projects you were referring to. You also stated you normally do not second bills that you would vote no on and that you could not say why other members did not second the motion. You also made a statement that you did not understand why the bill was up for vote that night when the council normally holds off a week or so to give the member’s time to correct any issues or offer other amendments. You also said council members do not get amendments until just before the council meeting which makes it hard to know what you are all voting on. That does not sound like good business practice.
Mr. McMahan and Mr. Boniface I wish to thank you for trying to get the start of legislation that would lead to store size caps just like other county councils have done in Maryland and other states. They have even gone beyond 13-16 with lawful restrictions on building cap sizes. They have found that store size caps do prevent the many negative impacts of big box development, such as increased traffic congestion and over burdened public infrastructure.
It is a shame that this council cannot discuss and pass legislation that addresses and alleviates the major concerns of the citizens which are mainly traffic congestion, safety, and quality of life. Instead I see no team work among members and in many cases conflict and hostility between members that are to the detriment of the people’s welfare. It is apparent each member have their own self interests again to the detriment of the people.
At a January 15th Council Meeting I urged this council, and by letter to Mr. Alex Rawls Transportation Planner @ P & Z and Mr. Rich Zeller with the State Highway Administration, to do a comprehensive traffic study in lieu of looking at only individual sites and traffic created by that site. They claim they cannot do that by existing regulations.
There is a Harford County Traffic Volume Map published every year by the State Highway Administration that shows the annual Average Daily Traffic Count on Route 924, classified as a Minor Urban Arterial Road, being over 19,000 cars per day. The interchange of I-95 to 924, MD 24 and Tollgate Road is over 72,000 cars per day. MD 24 was built as a limited access highway to handle a total of 20,000 cars per day. It is currently at 41,000 cars per day with talk of making it three lanes in each direction. With the proposed Walmart on 924, the Medstar Health Center across the street, Evergreen Woods Apartments one block away, Enclave at Box Hill Apartments, Magness Farm Development, additions to Chesapeake Health Center and a future Arts & Cultural Center all within a 2 mile or less radius it does not take a rocket scientist or a good traffic engineer to figure out that 924 will not be capable of being expanded to handle average daily volumes of close to 3 times the present numbers. The State Highway Administration and the traffic planners of Harford county need to wake up and see that all the additional traffic will compromise the safety and intended functions of these portions of the state highway network.
I do not pretend to understand the initial traffic study and revisions submitted by the traffic engineers for Walmart but it is obvious they still have not complied with the request by the Planning and Zoning Department and State highway Administration for detailed mitigation plans at key intersections they had identified. As an example many of their responses are answered with the following statement for key intersections, “It is our professional opinion that the impact at this intersection generated by Walmart development will be minimal, and that this intersection should therefore be eliminated from the TIS pursuant to Article XV, Section 267-126B(3)(c)(2) of the Harford County Zoning Ordinance. Earlier responses were requests to approve the preliminary TIA and site plan and than they would show how they would mitigate traffic. Those type of responses should be found totally unacceptable and the traffic plan and site plan disapproved as it is becoming apparent traffic mitigation cannot be accomplished for 924.
I was pleased to see the Abingdon Community Council send all council members a well written letter on April 23, 2013 asking members of this council to do a better job examining the impacts of ill-managed growth. They provided you with the problems associated with the current process of examining individual projects and they suggested solutions by looking at the “big picture” common sense approach that brings together multiple projects in proximity to each other. They summed up their letter with these words “Please advise us on what immediate action can be taken and how we can work together to create ongoing comprehensive traffic studies and better planning and zoning codes for Harford County.” I applaud them and only wish you will listen to them, the other citizens and do something for the citizen’s benefits for a change and not the developer’s benefits.
Unfortunately, I now question the value and validity of having Community Input Meetings, Public Hearings, Development Advisory Committee Meetings and Council Meetings where the citizens are allowed to speak and their words and recommendations fall on the deaf ears of developers, planners, and yes council members. This whole process needs to be fixed as well. The citizens need better representation and you have a responsibility and opportunity as our elected officials to do something about it. Continue to explore store size caps as other counties have done and keep track of how the Planning and Zoning Department and State Highway Administration handle the Walmart traffic analysis report and responses.
As I see it the council did vote, they voted NO on this bad bill by not bring it to a vote on the floor. What part don’t you stupid people get? Go take a civics class, you will learn how voting on bill happen. You would also learn, this way of killing a bad bill allows it to be corrected and reintroduced within the year unlike if it failed by a normal vote. Bills die all the time some before this point others on the floor by not being acted; pulled by the sponsor; being voted down; or by not getting a second. This is not the first time this has happened on the council. You see it with a bad bill that is moving too fast mainly when dealing with a hot issue like this one. The rt7 trash dump had a bill that was bad and failed to get a second. But all of you stupid people are now experts on how legislation works because you attended some council meetings. The rules for any legislative body are public information.
How I see it, this bill was very bad and was drafted too fast with little or no thought. Then too many unintended problems came me to light. You stupid people should be mad at old-timer Jim for not doing his homework and taking the time to drafting the bill correctly. He should have talked to the others about the bill before the vote to see if he should pull it. By adding and voting for the amendments tells me that the council felt this bad bill would pass. However, 5 council members felt the bill was still bad and needs to be redrafted and could not support it.
You say that Schrodes and Guthrie did not understand or know the bill, well the same goes for Jim. He to altered his views on the bill first saying it would not affect Wal-Mart then by saying it would, the planning office said the same. This was a bad bill being rushed to make you stupid people think you can win this. You keep wasting time at the council when only the planning office, county executive, and state highways could ever stop this Wal-Mart. Your only chance with the council was about 6 years ago.
Mr. Wehland, you stated that “The importance of it was to place final approval in the hands of the Board of Appeals and the County Council”. If you read the law that addresses the Board of Appeals you will clearly see that the council would be forbidden from voting on this issue because of prior knowledge and involvement with this issue zoning issue. That alone makes this a bad bill. But you are too stupid to see that or care to understand that. What would you be saying when that time comes and the council informs you that they cannot take up the issue because of prior knowledge and involvement in this zoning case? You would be saying the same things that you are now.
Your stupidity truly shows when you addressed Guthrie by saying “Mr. Guthrie I do not believe there would have been any false sense of security by the citizens about Walmart” but your title of this is “Although Many Citizens Saw this Bill as Preventing or Stopping Walmart from Building” that alone is a false sense of security and makes this a bad bill.
You also stated “At a January 15th Council Meeting I urged this council, and by letter to Mr. Alex Rawls Transportation Planner @ P & Z and Mr. Rich Zeller with the State Highway Administration, to do a comprehensive traffic study in lieu of looking at only individual sites and traffic created by that site. They claim they cannot do that by existing regulations.” Once again you and your group show how stupid you really are by sending it to the council. Please tell the people here what authority the council has over P&Z or the State Highway Administration? As I remember the council did voted and sent a letter to the state requesting them to deny the Wal-Mart’s plans and complete a comprehensive traffic study. Which a lot of people including myself felt was wrong for the council to do. You stupid people keep saying that you will vote them all out. GOOD LUCK! For those of you who do or can vote; do not be mad when you see that you can only vote for one member and the president. But it is ok if you do get mad because we all know that you are too stupid to know that. You stupid people keep showing your true colors and have failed to see the council has tried to help you. No council member would ever be willing to help you now. Enjoy your new Wal-Mart. I will see you at the grand opening. Happy Shopping!
You know, before you start going off the deep-end and start pointing fingers, calling people stupid and ignorant, then perhaps you should check yourself first.
People are not stupid just because they choose to voice a different opinion than you. They are not being ignorant, or stupid, by questioning their elected officials and attempting to get to the bottom of how a community action went down.
What is stupid, however, is an elected official replying to a constituent in a rude an condescending manner – I only wish that the author would have published that letter in a public forum so we could all view the elected official’s response. Certainly something that could have led to a few vote changes the next election.
Additionally, you mention that people may want to take a class on Civics. Well, while we do appreciate your concern an suggestion for advancing our education, I will return the favor and highly suggest that the next class you take should be English, or something to do with Composition. Your letter is erratic, full of nonsense, and so grammatically inferior, that I can only imagine you were either intoxicated while typing, or just showing your ass to the public.
Go on with your crybaby politically correct self. Go ahead and correct my inferior grammar and tell me about “sticks and stones”. Because that is all you have on me. Face it you know I’m right so you attacked the only thing I was wrong on, grammar.
Maybe I should have use a softer synonym of the word “stupid” like ill-advised or unwise. Or I should have used YOUR word “ignorant”. That truly defends your statements Mr. Bill Wehland and the statements of the other Bel Air South people crying out to the council.
I the 1920’s Albert Einstein defined Insanity as “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” So “Insane” may be a better word to define them.
The Bel Air South No Wal-Mart people and you are not being “ignorant, or stupid, by questioning their elected officials and attempting to get to the bottom of how a community action went down” or by not agreeing with me. The Stupid, Ignorant, or Insane part is that you refuse to listen to the council and others when they told you they are unable to help. Then you go on to attack them because you were ignorant to what the bill would do. You attacked them because you felt it would stop Wal-Mart. You attack them after they did not vote on the bill. Then the most insane part was you attacked them after they explained this bill would do nothing to stop the Wal-Mart even before the amendments passed. You are 100% correct when you stated how elected official should respond to constituents.
Stupid People,
You are an ass
Tom
Stupid People’s remarks calling other people stupid showed everyone how ignorant, foolish, self-centered, and mis-informed he really is. I believe he needs to run for County Council President or Council Member in his district since he knows so much about the Harford County rules and regulations. I would recommend he first take a course in English and Manners 101. Secondly, he should read and understand “Robert’s Rules of Order” which the Council failed to follow. Lastly, A Walmart needs to be built in his back yard so we can go there and shop with him.
Question for Humble and Webster?
Why you no can respond to topic and need to attack peoples who can?
Stupid ? Check your grammar. And you wonder?????
I wish Walmart would recognize what a negative atmosphere they’ve generated with their proposal to move their store. So many “No Bel Air Walmart” bumper stickers, so many yard signs. When it’s mentioned in conversation, people have such strong, negative feelings. Walmart’s actions have created a whole community of Walmart Haters. The thing is, Walmart could turn it all around by changing their decision to move and expanding the other store.
Your statement makes no sense, if that’s true, then the new wal marts parking lot is going to be empty. Which we know will be untrue
The existing store can’t be remodeled to accommodate the expansion with out completely demolishing it and rebuilding. That’s why they want to move.
At this point the county council is powerless to do anything to stop walmart and for some reason the No Walmart crowd just doesn’t understand that fact.
Only way to stop it is get the Dahan foundation, that says they “love giving away money” to not sell it. Perhaps they could build a lovely Synagog on the property.
How do you know they can’t remodel their existing store while keeping it open, Bob? There are examples of Walmart stores staying open during massive remodeling. Public perception says you are wrong.
What the No-New-Walmart-2-miles-from-the-old-one crowd understands is that we don’t want it, and we’ll fight it.
The Haran Dahan Foundation must be questioning what their PR will be like in the future.
How do I know? Grocery depts are not added willey nilley There is a lot of science along with plumbing , electrical and refrigeration that you don’t need to sell a pair of jeans or a fishing rod. They need to add 60,000 square feet to the existing store and it just won’t fit the way that store is presently located. It’s more cost effective to build a new store and leave that store standing as is and sell it when the new store is complete.
Well it CAN be done. It’s not true to say it can’t be done. But as you point out, it would be costly, and more cost effective to build new, and Walmart has basically stated that, just not in so many words publicly.
And they have a right to do so, but my problem is that their desire to be cost effective is going to cost the community, and whenever this has been pointed out to them, their response is they just don’t care.
Yes Noble you are correct anything can be done with the right amount of money. They are a business and they must make a profit. Perhaps the south Belair community can all pitch together to cover the costs of remodeling the existing store. Somehow I think those who are protesting are just not that willing to go 1/2 way towards a solution, but I could be wrong….
I think if we wait long enough, the JC Penny will be out of business and Walmart could temporarily lease the space while they build a lovely new store at CF.
i am offended by this post. I am a big supporter of Wal-mart and spoke at the hearing. First off, the opponents tried to turn this into a Wal-mart meeting when it was about legislation that would hurt many businesses in the county. The county had no right changing the rules halfway through the game for Wal-marts and should work with them. They create jobs!
Harford County has 3 Walmarts that already employ a lot of people, Frank. Walmart was always welcome in HC. Now they’re trying to push their way into a residential community. They will turn the roads into multiple lanes of heavy traffic, prohibiting pedestrian and bike use, and creating a hazardous situation filled with turn lanes, thru lanes, merge lanes, lane reduction sections that will be backed up: a nightmare for the people who call that community home. Tell your friends at Walmart we’d like them to listen to the community and stay where they are.
There will still be 3 walmarts and the residential community made it clear they wanted a big store like Walmart when they requested the zoning change!
Honey badger wants to know when was the last time you pedal biked down 924. Honey badger thinks bringing up foot and bike traffic against a wal mart debate is a last ditch minimal effort.
Honey badger thinks you wouod be crazy to ride your bike down 924 with the way honey badger sees people drive in Harford county
Hon, you have a low opinion of people who live in Harford County.
” The county had no right changing the rules halfway through the game for Wal-marts and should work with them.”
It doesn’t seem like you paid close attention at the meeting, because the amended bill specifically excluded projects already submitted to the County, such as Walmart’s, so there would have been no rules change after-the-fact. This was also explained clearly in the statement above.
“Wal-Mart is trying to push their wy into a residential community?” wake up, the land is zoned for a Wal-Mart they are just exercizing their rights as landowners. Perhaps if you werent asleep at the switch a few years ago when the land was rezoned you wouldnt be in this situation. At least with Wal-Mart they will pay for road repairs, not us, the taxpayer!
Walmart is not the only choice. The land is not zoned for a Walmart. It is zoned B3. That means retail services, business offices, professional offices. The best development in that site is something that fits the size of the lot and the type of community. That is definitely not Walmart.
Walmart would pay for roads in the immediate vicinity of the store, but not blocks away. There will be lane reductions on 924 as traffic moves outward, and that’s where Walmart will bow out. The citizens will deal with backed-up traffic, not being able to exit their neighborhoods, and then later on all the tax $$$$ it takes to remedy the traffic problems created by multiple lanes around the store. You must concede that is a heavy price. You and I will both pay, Frank, whether you realize it or not.
If they want groceries so bad, I’d like to see them change their plan and put in a Walmart “Market” store which basically only has groceries, and leaves plenty of room for other types of development.
Walmart didn’t create the traffic situation. They are in accordance with b3 zoning
Walmart didn’t create the current situation; they would bring into existence a much worse one if they build there.
Not if they mitigate it which they did a good job of in Fallston….If anything they made it better!
The Fallston Walmart was built on an arterial road – 924 is much more complicated. You can’t compare the two sites.
Try having faith that the traffic engineers will do a good job, maybe they will even work in conjunction with the county who has to fix the rest of the mess they created.
So add a huge traffic magnet to the mix and let the engineers figure it out? Bad logic. Not smart planning. The community suffers for the profit of Walmart.
No let an engineer figure it out before you add it!
The traffic engineers have already taken a stab at it– everything they plan to do is already in the impact study. (minus anything additional that might be required by government)
And that’s the problem. Putting a light in at Bright Oaks and considering it as your “main entrance” is a bad idea. Too many lights too close together. So why is it the main entrance? Because the only other way out of the parking lot for a 185k sq ft Supercenter is a little road near the front of the store onto Blue Spruce.
Because they don’t feel like putting more money into extra construction and work in the parking lot and, or buying more land to make the parking lot bigger to meet the parking requirements and design a smarter flow of traffic on their property. It was suggested that they need a second exit onto Blue Spruce to spread the traffic around, and they said it was too expensive.
So instead, the traffic problems are on our roadways, at our expense, to save them money.
This is the same refrain on most of the issues, we save money, you pay the price.
All new development is required to make and pay for traffic mitigation improvements, Walmart isn’t putting in a penny more than anyone else, or than is required by law.
@ Frank–We the taxpayers just spent over $26 million of our tax dollars to “fix” the intersection of Tollgate/24/924 because of “Walmarts whining about the traffic” according to David Craig’s Chief of Staff. Build Walmart at Plumtree and Walmart will whine again about the intersections they didn’t have to improve per the TIA. But never fear, O’Malley just passed a new gas tax that it supposed to pay for road repairs and improvements. Wait a minute…before Walmart even moves I’ll be paying more taxes to fix the road that Walmart will break. Whew, I can sleep better now.
i am tired of all the anti Wal-mart talk – the council rezoned the land, and they have every right to be there. Stop whining.
Just close your ears, Janice, because the fight won’t go away.
Honey badger says enjoy your new wal mart when construction begins.
Actually, the fight will go away. About 3 days after Walmart gets the final go ahead.
One assumes by our comments that you don’t drive along 924 or 24. If you do, it may be time to start taking an interest in what you perceive to be anti-Walmart talk. It is closer to the truth to say it is more about traffic and safety than anything else.
Walmart did a pretty good job of re-configuring the mess that was Rt. 1 at their Fallston location down past the MSP Barracks. There used to be serious accidents at the Whittaker Mill intersection every week (ask anybody at Jones) but that’s changed since Walmart arrived. It’s time to accept the fact that they are moving to 924 and they do not need any advice on how to run their business.
The reality of the new Wal-Mart situation is that the traffic on Route 24 and 924 will continue to get more congested, as a result of the mega-store being built. This will occur regardless of efforts to mitigate the situation with extra traffic lights and the odd turn lane being built. What will ultimately occur is quite simple. Route 24, which is already running at over-capacity will be expanded to three lanes in each direction. Route 924 also will have to be widened via the process of eminent domain. That is, traffic will get so bad that we will be forced into a situation in which we will find ourselves supporting a government seizure, at fair market value, of properties along that road simply to turn what will be an awful situation into something adequate. Who will be stuck with the bill for this? It won’t be Wal-Mart or the developers. It will be the residents of the County. I personally don’t want to see this, but I acknowledge that many others do.
I doubt the commercial business’s along that stretch of 924 would be upset at getting fair market for a road widening, it’s some pricy real estate.
Odd how none of them are complaining about the new walmart isn’t it….
I agree with you, Belair Bob, to some extent. The problem for some of the businesses would be the loss of their parking lots, sidewalks, etc, due to the road suddenly becoming 10 feet closer. It would be a good time to take the money and move to a more accessible location.
The local businesses probably won’t start complaining until it is too late to do anything. Most business owners are too busy to go to Council meetings, protests, etc to have their voices heard. When revenue goes down due to closer competition, then they will notice. That said, this won’t affect a business that isn’t competing with Wal-Mart, such as the banks. Kleins (Shoprite), Rite Aid, and the automotive stores in the Festival may be entering life support. Not only do they have to worry about price competition, but the reality that customers will face traffic delays to get to them, thereby encouraging patrons to go elsewhere.
Let me clear, I’m not anti-Wal-Mart. I am anti-destroying the infrastructure of 924 and 24 until they become virtually impassible.
“[T]he automotive stores in the Festival may be entering life support.”
I did not know Walmart sold distributors, brake pads or other serious car parts.
The automotive businesses are in direct competition, although not throughout their entire product lines, as you correctly point out. You also note through ommission that many view sacrificing a locally-owned grocery store is acceptable, or similarly to the automotive stores, it will have to rely on the sale of items not carried by Wal-Mart does not.
More to the point, there is good news in this. The fewer businesses we have in the Festival will mean reduced traffic on 924 and 24, which is the topic of this particular thread.
@ Kharn–Walmart is planning on having an auto service center in the Plumtree store per their submitted site plan. The Walmart auto center will supply the same services as Mr. Tire and NTB (and DJ’s and ATI). Walmart will also have product overlap with Advanced Auto located in The Festival.
I long for the Harford county of the 60s and 70s when the majority of you weren’t here. Life in the county was so much better then. Do really think Walmart is going to destroy Harford county and Bel Air anymore than the thounds of houses that have been and continue to be built has done? The woods that we played in and valued as kids are all but gone. My children and grandchildren will never know how beautiful this part of the world was. And now you think Walmart will make everything worse. You silly people. I trust none of you will be seen in the parking lot of this store if and when it goes in.
The way it used to be
Fair enough, I agree w/u. My question is what were u doing while they were putting in all the thousand of houses. Did u try and fight it then? The Walmart at Plumtree will only make a bad situation worse